Phenotyping feed conversion...pictures anyone?

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novatech":1zpmgj0b said:
cmf1":1zpmgj0b said:
Nova.
You have my interest up.
Do your long ears and humps convert grass, grain or both. And how do you define good conversion.
I've got some tigerstripes that are hit and miss with conversion but make some of the best babies around.
Brahman and Hereford are both known for their efficiency.

Well, cmf1, the real question is, 'what do Bramans convert it to?' Yes, they'll eat practically anything, even sawdust, and withstand the blazing heat. Beef jerky is in high demand :nod: . Now, if we can get NovaTech to mix-up those first rate jerkey makers of his to one of Knersies real Hereford bulls then he would have an efficient meat machine. ;-)
 
BeefmasterB":3oyewkqt said:
Well, cmf1, the real question is, 'what do Bramans convert it to?' Yes, they'll eat practically anything, even sawdust, and withstand the blazing heat. Beef jerky is in high demand :nod: . Now, if we can get NovaTech to mix-up those first rate jerkey makers of his to one of Knersies real Hereford bulls then he would have an efficient meat machine. ;-)
That is exactly my intent. And I will continue going the extra mile by attempting to improve the carcass quality of the Brahman. ( I'm sure you be happy to help me with the money on the semen shipping.)
But their are others that prefer to raise black as it is precooked by the time it is sold, in the 105 degree temps we are getting in the area. :lol:
 
cmf1 - are you looking to go completely to grass for your cow/calf operation? or all the way to finishing market steers?
Dun does a great job on grass - and if you look at his calves/cows - they have VOLUME. Like I said, phenotypically, they've gotta have the capacity to eat roughage.
My cowherd flourishes on a roughage diet. Granted, we do have lush grasses, but I also have fairly high milkers being Simmental - although they are not nearly has high producers as they used to be.
Dun starts his calves out on grain for weaning, but I believe they go right out to pasture/stock piled winter grazing after a few months (is that correct?). Whereas, we grain our heifers thru to breeding. Different climates, as Dun can testify (he lived out here).
I know you were making a point - but 15# of feed for 1# of gain is a bit much. The range is usually around 5:1 up to maybe 8:1 ???
"The eye of the master" is still the best way to pick the most efficient cattle. In contemporary groups in equal management, the easiest keepers float to the top. No rocket science.
If you're looking to puchase easy keeping cows from someone, walk his pastures just prior to weaning. You can SEE the grass converters (if you are sure he doesn't suppliment them) - they'll be in decent condition with a strapping good calf on their side.
 
Dun,
If you could figure out how to get fourteen other industries involved in that particular business practice so that you would have to share your profits with eggheads and strangers that contribute bare minimum to your business, you could teach that particular concept at colleges and universities around the world for big bucks.
I know quite a few people, including myself, that go blind and get real happy when certain animals blossom on feed without considering the fact that it makes them really less desirable to your profit potential. No matter how good they look on feed. In hindsight, those are the ones that get culled at some point anyway. I've been applying the logic, but i'm wasting money doing it a year or two later when they start falling apart. Your RFI test is simple and cost effective. Thanks for the slap on the back of the head.

Nova,

Personally I have seen no proof that cattle that do well on grass may not do well on feed. I have found the opposite to be true.

I agree. Cattle that are efficient on grass will be extra efficient on feed. The reverse is the problem. That's why I'm interested in the ideas of what makes a good "grass fed phenotype". The people out there researching "grass fed phenotypes" are tagging some breeds as more efficient,(Murray Grey, Devons, Galloways,..) but it still gets down to the particular animal within that breed, and what other qualities fit your operation and profit plan. Your phenotype definition is alot like what "they" reccomend (with a few added attributes), and grass efficiency is not owned by any one breed. But animals within certain breeds tend to be more typical than atypical so selecting from a particular breed could give you a leg up in achieving that goal.

BARNSCOOP,
When I first started considering all of this grass fed, I talked to anyone that would talk to me about their cattle and why they had that breed. I literally talked to more than fifty breeders big and small, on the phone, visiting farms, and e-mailing. Devon, Galloway Murray Grey, Angus, and even Pinzgauer and more. What I realized first off was what I already knew.
I like cattle and them what messes with'em. (I could go on and on) like I had'nt already))
I ended up going with a Murray Grey bull that I am crossing now and will add some purebreds too. The MGs just seemed to fit better with what I want to do. And the one that I wanted from the Midland Test, nobody else did. I'll let you know in a year or so if I really saved any money.

I think I would be very efficient on grass too cause I don't have any problem piling on the backfat with feed.
 
cfm1,

Do you get the publication Grassfarmer? If not you should. We sound like we are headed in the same direction, thus the reason I stared this post. I have four Murray Grey crosses with one of those being 3/4 Murray Gray and 1/4 Limi., a bull calf born at my farm this year. He is the best calf I have had on my place in two years and I am going to wait as long as I can before I decided if I castrate him. His sire is the only Murray Gray bull in my area (for several counties) and is WONDERFUL with grass conversion . Got a butt so big he doesn't have a crack. HA HA! I am small but I still want to make the most of my dollar.

Jeanne,

My eye for Phenotype is not strong and I trust your judgement, could you post a example of a possible poor feed converter and a possible good feed converter?
 
Jeanne,
It would'nt hurt my feelings at all if I never had to buy another ton or bag of grain/feed again. Of the people that want to buy finished animals from me, most don't want them to have any grain at all. I think they are using the term "grass fed" to cover a much broader range of issues than what it really is, but the customer is always right or they are someone elses customer.
Worst comes to worse, I can still sell'em by weight at the barn without having to buy grain to get them there.
The key to it all though is efficient producers. And your right that would be the best time to hunt replacements. weaning, carrying, and looking good doing it.

BARNSCOOP
Stockman Grass Farmer's one of the reasons I get to thinking about all this stuff. Most everything I read in there is as logical and cost effective an approach as Duns' RFI test. When I'm finished with my pasture conversions I plan to have 10-11 2 day paddocks with gates and alleys and fresh grass available somewhere all the time. Bahaia/Bermuda or Rye /Clover. Yes I still stock good hay.
 
For Louisiana climate you may want to check out Greyman cattle. Grass fed beef with marbling and tenderness plus highly efficient while dealing with the rough conditions in you area.
 
cfm1,

I envy you and your plan. I wish I had been reading the Stockman's grass farmer three years ago when we fenced, cross fenced and put in automatic waterers for our farm. I would have made some changes so I could mob graze. I current use rotational pastures and we put up hay as well. Can you imagine selling all your hay equiptment and running cattle on pasture all winter long. Even here in Tn. that would be difficult to do but you probley could much easier than I because of the climate. Well...unless you had a drought as we did two years in a row.
Best of luck to you, keep me informed on all your progress!
 
Yeah we might get 6-8 freezing nights a year. more often lately it's been 2-4 and rarely does it ever stay freezing during the day. The rye holds up very well and am investigating which clovers will carry me to green up. Basicly I'm doing rotational now and will really be moving to hybrid rotational/mob practice once I get the wire strung. When I'm away which is not that often, I wiil be able to get my neighbor or nephew to just open a gate and close it behind them every couple of days.
There is a guy in North Little Rock, Arkansas that raises some pretty good quality Mgs, and another in shelbyville Ky. If you're ever interested I'll fill you in. Keep me posted on your young bull too.
 
I'm afraid I could only show you examples of easy keepers, because we have been breeding/culling for them for 30+ years.
cfm1 - If I understand you correctly, you will have possibly 11 paddocks that will last 2 days each. That will be 22 days of feed. The first field won't have enough "rest" time - other than really early spring. Most grasses/clovers need a longer rest between grazing. Maybe new research says differently.
Also, a paddock that is going to last 2 days in the spring, won't last 1/2 day in summer slump.
We have about 60 acres divided into about 10-11 paddocks. During the first rotation thru they generally get the whole paddock and it may last 1 day. 2nd time thru they may get 1/2 - 3rd time some of the paddocks may get divided 3-4 times. As long as I have been doing rotional grazing, I have never been able to always keep "ahead" of the growth. Some always gets ahead of me, but that is good, because I have some stockpiled for the slower growing summer heat (ha ha - the thought of me talking about heat here in New York - that's a hoot!!!). You know what I mean, what is "hot" & dry for us creates slow growth. I'm running about 55 pairs with no suppliment of hay or grain once we hit grass (end of April thru ?maybe 1st week of Nov.)
 
Jeanne,

Sounds like you have a really good set up. My southern grazing starts in March-1st of November. Not much more than yours. How do you water your 11 paddocks?
 
Totally against all the rules - they basically have only ONE place to water - the lot around the barn. Not sure if they had water at each paddock if it would make any difference on our weaning weights, but it sure makes it easy to catch cattle. :lol:
The cattle have hedge rows/trees is most all paddocks. If they had a water supply, it would be another mud/bare area. Our land cannot take any concentration of FEET. Churns it up big time. Thats why we have to sacrifice lots for winter areas.
 
An interesting topic! I often wondered how much connection there was between a Feed Efficiency gene rating and how well this applied to entirely grass fed animals? It would seem that the correlation was between Feed Efficiency genes and grain fed animals performance.
There is very little grain feeding of finished stock in NZ so our animals have to do it themselves on grass only.

At the risk of putting ones head on the chopping block-here is a picture of a Murray Grey bull, last winter, (June down under)-approaching his 2nd birthday.
KRamblerJune09.jpg


He has been GeneSTAR tested 3/8 for Marbling, 8/8 for tenderness and 5/8 for Feed efficiency.
The MG breed averages being 1.7 for M, 6.3 for T and 4.9 for FE.
He is probably one of our shortest but probably the deepest gutted animal in proportion to his legs.
We got him for his carcase attributes-which in our operation has to be entirely grass fed, supplemented with hay/baleage in winter.

R2bullsCrusoe.jpg

The dark bull was geneSTAR tested 1/8 for marbling, 7/8 for tenderness and 8/8 for Feed efficiency.
He is pictured here in March after returning from being leased out to 2 seperate small herds since October, aged 18 months at this stage. He has since been moved on to the export bull beef market, carcase weight about 650lbs from memory at 20 months.
 
waihou,
I'd love to see some more angles on that silver bull.
From the look in that pic he is exactly what my yet learning brain sees as the optimum penotype for efficient grass conversion. And his numbers would tend to support that. Not to mention if he can reproduce himself what a winner of a herd bull he would be. I don't think anyone would chop at your head for owning this bull for the type of operation that you described.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 
waihou,

I like the first bull as well. Not to say that the second wouldn't be as nice if pictured at the same age not servicing cows.
I am really liking the Murray Greys more and more. I wish there were more breeders in my area or state even.
Thank you so much for posting some pictures! Please add some more when you can.
 
These are what I feel are efficient cows that do it on grass alone. I don't believe they would eat anymore than most other cows but yet they are always in this type of condition. I think an animal should always have good depth of body whether they are on grass or grain.











 
Those are some fine red cows, are they Red Angus? Wish we had acres of grass like that in summer too. I suppose the down side is winter?
Ours is a pretty moderate climate, with no snow where we farm, but we can see it on the 5,000ft mountains behind us, although we have just had a run of frosts in June and the days are usually between 8C and 12C. We are about 10 miles from the coast and often subject to westerly winds. Our rainfall is about 50 inches which pretty much falls all year round-so not the extremes that some of you cattle ranchers have to contend with. Our farm is only 50 acres with a lease block of another 20 acres. We calve 30 cows per year, July August time and keep all bull calves through to the selling season as 14 month olds and a few to lease. Retain about 1/3 of the heifer calves as replacements. These are stud, performance recorded cattle and very much a minority beef breed over here, but has found a niche in the dairy sire market producing calves for local trade (supermmarket steaks) and also favoured by small block farmers who kill their own beef, due to good temperament, early maturing and carcase quality off grass alone.

Here are some other views of our older bull Rambler, 35 months old, taken this morning for cmf1 and also one of a daughter we retained. She is age 10 months, born August 26th '08 and weaned at the end of March 09.
KRambler28609.jpg

Ramblerrearviewjune09.jpg

D261DiamondJune09.jpg


Here are a couple of the cows which are in calf to Rambler and due late July/August firstly the silver cow born '02 and has weaned 5 calves, who did quite well in the show ring this season. We do not 'feed' for the shows, just take hay for them to eat at the show, then back out with the herd!
Xaltjune09.jpg


and our oldest cow, a '98 matron due to have her tenth in about a months time. She is 8/8 for tenderness and 7/8 for feed efficiency in the Genestar testing, and 0/8 for marbling.
Tussockjune008.jpg


Note, our winter pasture is not that great and they only get supplemented with hay or baleage and are kept behind a hot wire until after they calve.
I have the EBV figures (EPD's) for these animals too and the last cow has a current Milk EBV of +13 to a breed average of +3 and a BW EBV of +1.5 to a breed average of +2.8.
 
waihou, BRG, Dun,
You guys have all achieved incredible results within grass fed parameters. I mean that. It's an absolute pleasure to look at your stock, and to know how they got there. It' a picture to shoot for.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

waihou, I like my Grey bull, but I got him hoping he's going to develop into your bull. I'm not so sure. But at least now I've got a target. I'm looking into some MG cows right now, I'm taking your pix with me. :)
 

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