Persimmons! (and Climate Change)

[Mark Reynolds]

For those of you that are familiar with persimmons, would anyone believe me if I told you that I was able to gather more yesterday at once than I have been able to in a long time? My timing hasn't been perfect the past couple of years. Maybe I know why now? Its only two weeks into September, its 85+ degrees outside (90+?), I'm in shorts and a T-shirt, and I'm sweating! I remember when I was a kid gathering the persimmons at the end of October with the snow flying and wanting to go back inside for a cup of hot chocolate! Yes we had an early spring this year (3 weeks early), and yes, I'm in the middle of a drought. Its going on the third week of D3 and knocking on the door of D4 which 5 of the surrounding counties are now in. In all honesty, I think I could have started gathering the persimmons a week ago. There are still a lot on the tree though. My grandmother always said that you can't gather persimmons until you have had your first frost. The reason being that persimmons supposedly aren't ripe until then. If you have ever bit into a green persimmon (well, at least not ripe yet) you will never forget it! They are VERY astringent! They will make you pucker up for up to and longer than a half hour! As for a ripe persimmon, the taste is beyond about anything you can imagine for a fruit. It's unlike anything else you've ever had. I had someone yesterday describe it to me as being somewhat like a mango in texture and taste. I think that is somewhat accurate. (Unfortunately they don't like mangos, but I do.) Last year I had someone tell me that it reminded them of an extremely sweet tomato. (Maybe, but I've never had had a tomato that sweet. I've had the sweetest tomatoes I ever have had this year, but I still question them being like a persimmon or vis versa.)

On the topic of drought, I was talking to a grass finishing producer yesterday. He was telling me how his postman was commenting on how his pastures were still green and everyone elses are burnt to a crisp right now. The producer rotational grazes and maintains a grass height of a minimum of four inches at all times. Its more evident in a drought like we are in the effect of a proper rotational grazing system has on an operation than any other time.

 

[cowman82]

i have several of them near a spring, i'll have to check them.

 

[Ebenezer]

For those of you that are familiar with persimmons, would anyone believe me if I told you that I was able to gather more yesterday at once than I have been able to in a long time? My timing hasn't been perfect the past couple of years. Maybe I know why now? Its only two weeks into September, its 85+ degrees outside (90+?), I'm in shorts and a T-shirt, and I'm sweating! I remember when I was a kid gathering the persimmons at the end of October with the snow flying and wanting to go back inside for a cup of hot chocolate! Yes we had an early spring this year (3 weeks early), and yes, I'm in the middle of a drought. Its going on the third week of D3 and knocking on the door of D4 which 5 of the surrounding counties are now in. In all honesty, I think I could have started gathering the persimmons a week ago. There are still a lot on the tree though. My grandmother always said that you can't gather persimmons until you have had your first frost. The reason being that persimmons supposedly aren't ripe until then. If you have ever bit into a green persimmon (well, at least not ripe yet) you will never forget it! They are VERY astringent! They will make you pucker up for up to and longer than a half hour! As for a ripe persimmon, the taste is beyond about anything you can imagine for a fruit. It's unlike anything else you've ever had. I had someone yesterday describe it to me as being somewhat like a mango in texture and taste. I think that is somewhat accurate. (Unfortunately they don't like mangos, but I do.) Last year I had someone tell me that it reminded them of an extremely sweet tomato. (Maybe, but I've never had had a tomato that sweet. I've had the sweetest tomatoes I ever have had this year, but I still question them being like a persimmon or vis versa.)

On the topic of drought, I was talking to a grass finishing producer yesterday. He was telling me how his postman was commenting on how his pastures were still green and everyone elses are burnt to a crisp right now. The producer rotational grazes and maintains a grass height of a minimum of four inches at all times. Its more evident in a drought like we are in the effect of a proper rotational grazing system has on an operation than any other time.

You are faster than a speeding possum! If any astringency is left, just freeze them to end that.
There used to be a joke here in SC to tell on folks across the Savannah River over in GA. In a group you'd say, "You hear that Fred (or whoever) broke his arm one time eating breakfast? He fell out of a persimmon tree".
I guess that you had to be there!

 

[Lucky_P]

Yeah... that old adage about "You can't eat them until after a freeze/frost." is, and has been wrong - or, at least, overplayed... forever. If I waited until a frost (avg first frost date here, is Oct 28) I'd never get a ripe persimmon. Most here will be dropping in September, and done long before the first frost. I've got one American persimmon cultivar, that I grafted in 1996, that has consistently been dropping big ripe persimmons by Sept 10, for 25+ yrs. Had one local tree that I found once that was dropping ripe fruits on Sept 1.
I've been eating a few ripe persimmons for 3 weeks now. Picked up a gallon of ripe fruits from that 'NC-10' tree I mentioned earlier, yesterday. There were quite a few that were far enough past their prime that I pitched them out of the way; plenty of evidence that the deer had been spending time under that tree for the past week or more.
I do have a couple that won't ripen here, and freeze, green, on the tree... they won't ripen or lose astringency, no matter how many times they go through a freeze/thaw cycle... they just remain 'spitters'. Some trees will hold their fruits without dropping, and they will progressively dehydrate on the tree - and some are decent eating, but in my experience, the fruit quality is nothing like as good as those that ripen in-season and drop when ripe.
Pic of some of those 'NC-10' persimmons I gathered yesterday.

 

[Logan52]

For some reason they are not native to my part of the county (Bluegrass section) but common in the knobs to the west and south.
My one tree I brought back as a seed from Perryville Battlefield park, about 30 years ago. I have read they are not self fertile yet mine bears abundantly each year.
Like Lucky P, if I waited for a frost or freeze, I would just have dried uneatable mummies on the tree. They are now falling from the tree in mid September and quite delicious though small.

 

[kenny thomas]

Although both are Persimmons there is a northern and a southern variety. Because of the shorter season in the north they will ripen earlier. The mid- south has some of both, i assume from the seeds being carried by both humans and animals for decades.
I ate some this week on my farm but on other trees they are green and solid. Those wont be ripe until probably November and some will hang on the trees until after Christmas.
Both varieties are loaded with fruit this year. But so are apples, pears, cherries, white oaks, red oaks.

 

[chaded]

They are just starting to turn color here but most of them are still pretty green.

I also rotational graze and that did not save me from this drought. Maybe better off than the neighbors who graze to the dirt but that isn't saying much. I have some pastures that haven't been touched for close to if not 2 months and I wouldn't even think about putting cattle on them now.

I usually leave more than 4" as well but at some point you need rain regardless of how well you manage.

 

[Lucky_P]

For some reason they are not native to my part of the county (Bluegrass section) but common in the knobs to the west and south.
My one tree I brought back as a seed from Perryville Battlefield park, about 30 years ago. I have read they are not self fertile yet mine bears abundantly each year.
Like Lucky P, if I waited for a frost or freeze, I would just have dried uneatable mummies on the tree. They are now falling from the tree in mid September and quite delicious though small.

There are two principal 'races' of American persimmon, Diospyros virginiana. The 'Northern' race is hexaploid, having 90 chromosomes, the 'Southern' race is tetraploid, having 60-chromosomes. (There is are some 30-C races in TX & FL, but they're of minor importance) The two races do not cross-breed, but the Northern race can be hybridized with Asian persimmons - but requires 'embryo rescue' in the laboratory to get those initial F1 plants.
Almost all of the 'named' American persimmon cultivars are of the 90-chromosome race, and will bear parthenocarpically - females will produce seedless fruit in the absence of a 90-chromosome male pollenizer.
IDK how dependable seedless fruit production is by the Southern race, but I have one local 60-C tree that produces about 80% small(1") seedless fruits and 20% larger (1.5") fruits having a single plump seed. Plenty of native 60-C males around, and I undoubtedly also have 90-C males due to planting seeds/seedlings of improved, named 90-C types.
In general persimmons are considered to be dioecious - meaning that trees will either be non-fruiting males, or fruiting females. Some 'families' - like the 'Early Golden'/'Garretson' line are noted for occasionally pushing limbs with male flowers on otherwise female trees. Additionally, there are a few 'polygamodioecious' (bisexual) males that produce both male and 'perfect' flowers having both male & female parts, and can produce fruits.

I'm including a map detailing general distribution of the 60 & 90 chromosome types, but in KY, we consider the Ohio River to more or less be the dividing line between the two races. IDK why KY & GA are portrayed as having both, unless it's related to large numbers of the Northern race having been planted by people in those states.
This map is by no means complete... heck, they don't even show any results for Indiana, which has been Ground Zero for American persimmon breeding, by folks like Jim Claypool, Jerry Lehman, Don Compton.

 

[4hfarms]

We have a few trees. Only a couple a day turn gold for us at this time. We feed them to the cows when they fall on their own. The cows seem to love the trees here, Persimmon, Peach, Apple, Pear, lots of vine fruits too, and nut trees like beech, oaks etc.

 

[greybeard]

To heck with eatin them... What do the seeds say?

 

[4hfarms]

To heck with eatin them... What do the seeds say?

They have been wrong the last few years.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

To heck with eatin them... What do the seeds say?

I meant to look Saturday. I've got to go open a few seeds here in a few minutes.

 

[Ouachita]

Good memories of Miss Castleberry bringing persimmon pie to the RVFD fundraisers. They always commanded top dollar and it was fun to watch the wives expressions when their husbands starting bidding against each other.

 

[greybeard]

They have been wrong the last few years.

So has NOAA and Weather.com