Overgrazing defined

[Sir Loin]

Overgrazing defined

IMO, overgrazing is "knowingly" placing a cow (cattle) on a plot of land that can not sustain the cow. (Cattle)
The key word is "knowingly ".
And that is the only time I will blame/accuse management of poor management practices by overgrazing as most all other circumstances are out of managements control.

With that said, let me add this:
I do hold management responsible for a "remedy" (fix) to the overgrazing.

Do you agree or disagree?
SL

 

[Wewild]

Overgrazing defined

IMO, overgrazing is "knowingly" placing a cow (cattle) on a plot of land that can not sustain the cow. (Cattle)
The key word is "knowingly ".
And that is the only time I will blame/accuse management of poor management practices by overgrazing as most all other circumstances are out of managements control.

With that said, let me add this:
I do hold management responsible for a "remedy" (fix) to the overgrazing.

Do you agree or disagree?
SL

Who cares who you hold responsible? Worry about what is yours.

In the end it comes down to the same thing. That is the grazing thing. You won't have to help fix the problem it has created unless it belongs to you.

 

[Sir Loin]

Wewild,

Easy there big boy.
We haven't defined "sustain" yet!
SL

 

[VanC]

Let me add something to your definition, if I may. Overgrazing is placing cattle on land that will not sustain them without adding supplemental feed. By your definition, all feedlots are overgrazing, since the cattle would not survive without the feed they are getting.

I have to disagree with the "knowingly" part. Pasture that is overgrazed is still overgrazed, whether it is on purpose or out of ignorance or whatever.

I also disagree that "most all other circumstances are out of managements control". I believe most things are in his/her control, at least to a degree, weather being one of the biggies that isn't. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Wewild]

Wewild,

Easy there big boy.
We haven't defined "sustain" yet!
SL

What I find is inconsistency in you. It wasn't long ago that you couldn't grasp the rotational grazing concept ... and when someone disagreed with you recently about feeding out of a sack ..... you questioned their intelligence by them being the problem with being a progressive business man.

If you want to define "sustain" ability as staying in business through the good and the bad ... through the errors and success ... handed down from generation to generation and still working the land ... then you may be right for once.

Everybody don't do it the same way. That's a fact.

 

[Frankie]

You don't get your own special definition of "overgrazing".

From Wikipedia:

"In the dictionary and agriculture, overgrazing is when plants are exposed to grazing for too long, or without sufficient recovery periods....."

"Knowingly" doesn't change anything. The land and grass are damaged whether the grazier is just ignorant about grass management or just doesn't care.

It's always under the manager's control. When it doesn't rain, he should reduce the number of mouths on the land/grass. We have an "abuse paddock" in our rotational system. It doesn't have much grass even in the best of times. If we have to feed hay during the grazing season, we put the cows in that paddock. They will continue to graze anything that grows while they eat hay. Using one paddock for that purpose helps save the others from being damaged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overgrazing

 

[Sir Loin]

Van,
Re:

Let me add something to your definition, if I may. Overgrazing is placing cattle on land that will not sustain them without adding supplemental feed. By your definition, all feedlots are overgrazing, since the cattle would not survive without the feed they are getting.

You are absolutely correct. Agreed.
Re:

I have to disagree with the "knowingly" part. Pasture that is overgrazed is still overgrazed, whether it is on purpose or out of ignorance or whatever.

You are correct again.
Re:

I also disagree that "most all other circumstances are out of managements control". I believe most things are in his/her control, at least to a degree, weather being one of the biggies that isn't. Just my humble opinion.

Now here is where we start to part ways.
Re: "I believe most things are in his/her control"

There are only three elements that can cause overgrazing besides actual poor management and they are:
1. cattle
2. weather and
3. the land ( soil and topography)

Now Re: "I believe most things are in his/her control,"
I disagree as I don't know anyone who can control/change the weather, or the topography, and/or the soil type for a specific geographical location.
And that only leaves the cattle under management's control.

What else do you see as being under managements control unrelated to the above three?

What some of you people don't seem to comprehend is that most of TN and GA pastures are not really pastures yet.
Most of the land we run cattle on is virgin land. It has not had 200 years of nurturing and it is far from "pristine" that you all are visualizing. It is cleared clear cut and burned harvested timer land.
And if it is not used it will revert back to scrub over growth and become totally useless to anyone.

Now before you even mention fertilizer and lime let me tell you this.
The soil in this area will not hold fertilizer or lime.
You can put it on and the first good rain you can stand on the bank of the TN River and wave goodbye to your fertilizer and lime dollars.

Now until we can build some humus in this soil and deepen the top soil (about 100 years) by running cattle on it, at certain times of the year, or weather condition, what you'll are calling overgrazing will occur, as will erosion. And some of both will be intentional.
But that does not mean the cattle will suffer (not be sustained) in any way as the cattle are the driving force behind the whole operation.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Frankie,
Re:

You don't get your own special definition of "overgrazing".

My point exactly! But nor does anyone else.
Overgrazing is overgrazing which has absolutely nothing to do with poor management and the two should never be in the same sentence.

And the next time someone mentions overgrazing that is caused by the weather, topography and/or soil type I want them to also tell me the fix to the overgrazing that they conceive as a problem.


SL

 

[Frankie]

Frankie,
Re:

You don't get your own special definition of "overgrazing".

My point exactly! But nor does anyone else.
Overgrazing is overgrazing which has absolutely nothing to do with poor management and the two should never be in the same sentence.

And the next time someone mentions overgrazing that is caused by the weather, topography and/or soil type I want them to also tell me the fix to the overgrazing that they conceive as a problem.

SL

Overgrazing is caused by poor management, nothing else. It's your responsibility, as manager, to reduce the mouths on a piece of land during a drought. If you don't, you'll be paying for it a long time after the rains start.

You can't cause it to rain, but you can lower the number of animals eating grass and "overgrazing" if the land isn't able to support them.

 

[VanC]

Now Re: "I believe most things are in his/her control,"
I disagree as I don't know anyone who can control/change the weather, or the topography, and/or the soil type for a specific geographical location.

No one can change the weather, but they can control the numbers grazing on a particular pasture. If a particular area only supports 1 pair per 50 acres, then you don't try to cram a pair for each acre in there. You will lose your butt.
If your pasture usually supports 1 pair per acre, but you don't get any rain for 3 months, you have two choices: feed supplements or get rid of some cows and calves. Unfortunately, this happens all the time. The lack of rain isn't under the manager's control, but how he/she reacts to it is, and that can be the difference between surviving or going under.

What else do you see as being under managements control unrelated to the above three?

Breed or breeds used, genetics, health programs, feeding practices, proper facilities, land management, breeding and calving schedules, weaning schedules, marketing and on and on. All these things, and more, are under the manager's control and will effect the bottom line.

 

[Sir Loin]

Frankie,
Re:

Overgrazing is caused by poor management, nothing else.

You can put that one where the monkey put the peanut.
Only the cattle can "cause" overgrazing!
Without the cattle there would be no grazing, therefore no overgrazing. See, it's all the responsibility of the cattle as to how much the graze.

Re:

It's your responsibility, as manager, to reduce the mouths on a piece of land during a drought.

Why is it that the first words out of someone's mouth, who associate overgrazing with management, is to "reduce" your herd?
Why in Gods good name would I sell my cattle at a lose and then have to buy them back in 30 – 60 days, losing even more money? That would be two real poor management decisions that could very well put me totally out of business!

Re:

If you don't, you'll be paying for it a long time after the rains start.

You can put that where the monkey put the peanut also.
Right now when the rain does come I am all set for some good erosion to help build some more top soil and add humus. Things couldn't be better.
Exactly how do you think Mother Nature made the soil you have?

Re:

You can't cause it to rain, but you can lower the number of animals eating grass and "overgrazing" if the land isn't able to support them.

Here we go again. "lower the number of animals eating grass".
You just don't get it do ya?
HELLO, with this land I really don't care if it is overgrazed!
As a matter of fact I welcome controlled overgrazing and expect and plan for it.
This is exactly why I have been doing supplemental feeding. It's all part of my long term management strategy.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Van,
The question was:

What else do you see as being under managements control unrelated to the above three?
1. cattle
2. weather and
3. the land ( soil and topography)

Re:

Breed or breeds used, genetics, health programs, feeding practices, proper facilities, land management, breeding and calving schedules, weaning schedules, marketing and on and on.

All of those are "related" to the "cattle", except for "land management" which is related to "the land".

So the LCD (lowest common denominator) or 3 elements of overgrazing are still:
1. cattle
2. weather and
3. the land ( soil and topography)
Now which one's can management control?
A. cattle.

And as "cattle" is the only element management has control over, that is all you can hold him/her responsible for.
The other two you need to hold Mother Nature responsible.

SL

 

[ga. prime]

Sir Loin said:
"Right now when the rain does come I am all set for some good erosion to help build some more top soil and add humus."

Sir Loin, could you elaborate on how this works?

 

[Sir Loin]

Ga,
Re:

Sir Loin said:
"Right now when the rain does come I am all set for some good erosion to help build some more top soil and add humus." Sir Loin, could you elaborate on how this works?

Sure no problem. I'll even get some pic for you.
Just give me a day or two, and if I forget please remind me.
I'll start a new topic called "controlled erosion".
SL

 

[Bluestem]

Ga,
Re:

Sir Loin said:
"R
I'll start a new topic called "controlled erosion".
SL

This is going to be interesting :roll:

 

[Tod Dague]

Why in Gods good name would I sell my cattle at a lose and then have to buy them back in 30 – 60 days, losing even more money? That would be two real poor management decisions that could very well put me totally out of business!

30-60 days is not a drought, it's a dry spell. We have those every year.

 

[Sir Loin]

Tod,
Re:

30-60 days is not a drought, it's a dry spell. We have those every year.

Don't tell me, tell The Weather Channel.
Ya know I heard all things were bigger in TX. So are you telling me to add a drought to the list. :lol: :lol:
SL

 

[newrancher]

I think somebodys boots are fitting a little too tight :lol:

 

[Tod Dague]

Tod,
Re:

30-60 days is not a drought, it's a dry spell. We have those every year.

Don't tell me, tell The Weather Channel.
Ya know I heard all things were bigger in TX. So are you telling me to add a drought to the list. :lol: :lol:
SL

We are just coming out of two years of drought with thousands of acres burned off in Oklahoma and Texas. From what I understand Florida is in the middle of a drought now as well as some other states, and I imagine it started more than 30 - 60 days ago.

30-60 days is nothing, what little rain we get between the 1st of July and mid September is burned off in no time.

 

[Sir Loin]

OH good Lord, another one of those "things are always bigger and better in Texas" Texans.
What's next, your "Texas is the only state that is allowed to fly the state flag above the US flag" brag.
Hey you Texans, didn't you hear, Alaska is bigger then Texas!! And that makes you second and if your not first, your might as well be last.
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8
That was meant to be funny, so don't eat your boots.
SL