Out of Comrade--Need Replacement Ideas

[boondocks]

Howdy,
We are midway thru our AI season and had planned to finish up with Conneally Comrade (reg Angus), as we have loved the calves we got from him this year and planned to use him one more year. Found out today our SS tech cannot get any more of him, so we are considering other ideas. Couple of questions:

We have used Boyd Signature before (but didn't have great conception rates, FWIW). Looking at the Select Sires catalog, he has an average BW of 69# but a CED of only 2. I also liked some things about Limelight, but he has an average BW of 52# with a CED of 6. What am I missing? Wouldn't one expect such low birthweights to correlate more closely with a higher CED? Comrade (eg) has BW of 74# with CED of 16.

Any thoughts on the following (keep in mind that as relative newbies, we value CED and DOC, and look for bulls with decent accuracy):
1). CTS Remedy:
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.ph ... reed=Angus
Since Dec., his CED went up from 14 to 15 (with a slight improvement is accuracy to .64 from .58), but DOC dropped from 22 to 17 (which is still not bad, right?). I do like his looks, tho he is not a "superior settler" fwiw.

2). Hoover Elation:
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.ph ... ge?bid=344

3). GAR Prophet (or son Prophecy; dad has lower CED but much better WW and YW):http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.php/bull-database-view-page/page?bid=158
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.ph ... ge?bid=158

Still looking at a few others but would appreciate any comments/experience on the above (or other suggestions from the SS lineup).
Thanks!

 

[jscunn]

What about Connealy Courage. We had a couple and they both turned out pretty good out of 2 yr olds. Neigbor had some Comrade calves and they looked alot like the Courages we had. A Select bull like Comrade, if that helps.

Prophets are good but he will throw alot of white if that matters..

 

[Lazy M]

From ss I'd strongly recommend Butkis. EPDs are phenomenal and I've seen many first hand and can verify that they're real nice.

 

[cow pollinater]

Are you only buying from select?

 

[boondocks]

What about Connealy Courage. We had a couple and they both turned out pretty good out of 2 yr olds. Neigbor had some Comrade calves and they looked alot like the Courages we had. A Select bull like Comrade, if that helps.

Prophets are good but he will throw alot of white if that matters..

I like Courage's EPDs but (again, apologies as a newbie), is his topline not a bit swaybacked? As oppposed to, eg, Comrade? His birth weight is 83#, but might work for my cows...I'd probably want a bit lighter calves for my 2 heifers, since I'm breeding them at 13-14 months. He might be lacking a bit of length?? What is the best way to tell that? Just visually? (Frame size and YH would not seem to shed light on that per se?). Sorry for all the questions, and thanks for your thoughts!

 

[boondocks]

From ss I'd strongly recommend Butkis. EPDs are phenomenal and I've seen many first hand and can verify that they're real nice.

I like his EPDs for my herd. The pic isn't very good in my brochure, looks kinda short and clubby, and not real manly. I'll look for a better pic/video.

Thanks!

 

[boondocks]

Are you only buying from select?

Yes, limited to SS as that is the only game in town (or boondocks) to get a tech. Someday I will learn how myself!

 

[bse]

A few guys around here are partners on the Remedy bull, ive seen calves out of him and yearling bulls, I like them, they sell well around here and if you look at Ellingsons sale they did well there also. From what I hear the females are doing well. Im gonna breed my heifers to him this fall, gave him enough time to be a little more proven.

 

[Ebenezer]

If you believe in EPDs, the bulls actual and individual BW is of no interest to you as the BW and CED EPDs are the gospel.

Slight movements in EPDs mean nothing. Nobody can describe an animal with a DOC of 17 vs. one that is 22.

If you are using only AI bulls to increase sales, it does not matter as much as to what you like as to what sells well in your area: herd prefixes, bull names, ...

If you have the choice of a proven bull that is good due to some knows by you and neighbors but not the fair hair child of the big dogs or an unproven bull with great numbers, high publicity and low accuracy, go with the old bull.

Like you have noted the softness of a swayback bull, also find out about feet, legs, daughters' fertility and udders. Those faults will haunt you for a long time and make your cattle painful to own.

 

[boondocks]

If you believe in EPDs, the bulls actual and individual BW is of no interest to you as the BW and CED EPDs are the gospel.
Slight movements in EPDs mean nothing. Nobody can describe an animal with a DOC of 17 vs. one that is 22.
If you are using only AI bulls to increase sales, it does not matter as much as to what you like as to what sells well in your area: herd prefixes, bull names, ...
If you have the choice of a proven bull that is good due to some knows by you and neighbors but not the fair hair child of the big dogs or an unproven bull with great numbers, high publicity and low accuracy, go with the old bull.
Like you have noted the softness of a swayback bull, also find out about feet, legs, daughters' fertility and udders. Those faults will haunt you for a long time and make your cattle painful to own.

Thanks Ebenezer. I have followed the recent threads on feet with great interest.
We don't sell bulls. We sell some replacement heifers (and grassfed beef). So, I'm not looking for the "bull of the day" but not fishing for some obscure bull either; since we're limited by the SS line-up, and by our desire for high CED and DOC, that narrows things down a good bit already, for better or for worse!

Here's a question for you or others: on older bulls that are still being offered by SS, does conception rate drop at all in practice? I know they have to test the semen on an ongoing basis etc, but just wondering if there's any actual conception drop in a bull born, say 2007 (eg, Limelight, just to pick one)? My understanding is that they stockpile a lot and some of the older bulls ain't still actually walking the earth. So, whether they are alive or dead, are their conception rates potentially lowered (either due to age in the case of a live bull, or degradation of the frozen sperm in the case of stockpiled sperm)?
Thanks!

 

[jscunn]

I havent seen any issues on the toplines of the Courage cattle.. two big cavets they are only 10 months old and they are only 2 heifers. I didnt use him last year and I kinda wish I had.

As far as calving ease, one was the first calf born and one was the last Angus calf born via AI, both came before the due date and were unassisted out of heifers. BWs are irrevelant that is more management related..(ie cant compare our BWs to yours). In our deal the BWs were approx avg for the herd. (74 and 75 lbs, avg was 75.48)

 

[frieghttrain]

What kind of cows do you have? What do you need to improve? We bred some heifers to Limelight so I'll try to tell ya'll how that goes next year, I think he's dead though.

 

[boondocks]

What kind of cows do you have? What do you need to improve? We bred some heifers to Limelight so I'll try to tell ya'll how that goes next year, I think he's dead though.

We have reg Angus, a pretty young herd (oldest is 6). From some good sturdy non-fancy genetics. They are good mothers and (I'm told by vet and many others) some of the tamer Angus they have seen. (Of course, they have their moments! We don't baby them and they are not pets). We've had 17 calves so far, without any needing help (knock serious wood). They are bred for our challenging northern environment. I haven't done official "frame" measuring but from the Angus shows/sales I've gone to, I think they are moderate. We are trying to get a bit more carcass on them (a few are a little on the oft-maligned hatchet-azz side) but not lose DOC, calving ease, etc.

Does that help? Thanks!

 

[Ebenezer]

They are bred for our challenging northern environment. I haven't done official "frame" measuring but from the Angus shows/sales I've gone to, I think they are moderate. We are trying to get a bit more carcass on them (a few are a little on the oft-maligned hatchet-azz side) but not lose DOC, calving ease, etc.

Only thing I can offer: you have listed priorities: DOC, CE, need Angus that will hair up and need muscle/REA or however you define muscle in rear quarters. Short term: check SS bulls for those traits and take the fallout of on other traits. Long term: do a sire search on AAA site and find proven bulls that do all of that for you and begin a study to find the best (least negatives). I am climates apart from you and you would be harmed if I recommended bulls or lines that work in the humid SE USA. There is a guy, PatB, on the ACS site that would be in your general region if you can call or email him. He is an Angus guy with the use of a lot of AI bulls. I don't know which ones or what worked.

 

[boondocks]

They are bred for our challenging northern environment. I haven't done official "frame" measuring but from the Angus shows/sales I've gone to, I think they are moderate. We are trying to get a bit more carcass on them (a few are a little on the oft-maligned hatchet-azz side) but not lose DOC, calving ease, etc.

Only thing I can offer: you have listed priorities: DOC, CE, need Angus that will hair up and need muscle/REA or however you define muscle in rear quarters. Short term: check SS bulls for those traits and take the fallout of on other traits. Long term: do a sire search on AAA site and find proven bulls that do all of that for you and begin a study to find the best (least negatives). I am climates apart from you and you would be harmed if I recommended bulls or lines that work in the humid SE USA. There is a guy, PatB, on the ACS site that would be in your general region if you can call or email him. He is an Angus guy with the use of a lot of AI bulls. I don't know which ones or what worked.

Yes, you've hit the nail pretty well with what we are looking for. Comrade was (seemingly) a good fit (both on paper and in terms of the calves we have gotten out of him this year). So with him out of stock, we are narrowing it down a bit. Not looking to make drastic changes, just incremental ones each season.

 

[UG]

Regarding the conception rate from old semen that has been in storage for many years, I would encourage you to talk to an expert at one of the semen companies. Every year or two, I will go back in the archives and use a bull that has been dead for 20 years. I haven't done a conception rate study using old semen, but in my experience I would guess that the conception rates are comparable to more recently collected bull.

I haven't used Remedy and haven't seen any progeny, but I have heard from a few different sources that he is a bull that does many things right. He is out of Connealy Thunder, who makes some tremendous daughters, so I am anxious to see some daughters out of Remedy. Several have commented that he has excellent feet, which is something we don't hear too often regarding Angus bulls.

We sampled TC Thunder this past fall and should get the first calves within a month. TC Thunder is also a son of Connealy Thunder. He also has a reputation for excellent feet, moderate frame, calving ease, daughters with good teats and udders, and calves that have lots of vigor at birth to get up and nurse. In the past few months I have been told by some that have more experience with the bull that some of the calves aren't all that impressive; just ok performance, not as much thickness and middle, etc.

The one bull that I encourage you to take a good look at is Connealy Capitalist. His docility EPD is not great, but the few calves we have out of him have very good dispositions. When I have discussed Capitalist with others that have used the bull they too comment that they don't know why his Docility EPD is so low, as their Capitalist calves are also some of the more quiet calves. The Capitalist calves were my favorite sire group last year. Big-middle, thick, good feet, and they slicked off well this summer. Capitalist daughters have a reputation for having tight udders and smaller teats. The only two negative comments I have heard on the bull is one guy thought he was too small framed; but that didn't hurt us as we used him on a little larger cows that were Gelbvieh influenced. Another Angus breeder commented that they didn't have enough growth for him, but I don't know if that comment comes from experience of using Capitalist, or if that was simply his opinion based on Capitalist's YW EPD. Our calves had good growth, but we didn't have a large contemporary group.

 

[frieghttrain]

Regarding the conception rate from old semen that has been in storage for many years, I would encourage you to talk to an expert at one of the semen companies. Every year or two, I will go back in the archives and use a bull that has been dead for 20 years. I haven't done a conception rate study using old semen, but in my experience I would guess that the conception rates are comparable to more recently collected bull.

I haven't used Remedy and haven't seen any progeny, but I have heard from a few different sources that he is a bull that does many things right. He is out of Connealy Thunder, who makes some tremendous daughters, so I am anxious to see some daughters out of Remedy. Several have commented that he has excellent feet, which is something we don't hear too often regarding Angus bulls.

We sampled TC Thunder this past fall and should get the first calves within a month. TC Thunder is also a son of Connealy Thunder. He also has a reputation for excellent feet, moderate frame, calving ease, daughters with good teats and udders, and calves that have lots of vigor at birth to get up and nurse. In the past few months I have been told by some that have more experience with the bull that some of the calves aren't all that impressive; just ok performance, not as much thickness and middle, etc.

The one bull that I encourage you to take a good look at is Connealy Capitalist. His docility EPD is not great, but the few calves we have out of him have very good dispositions. When I have discussed Capitalist with others that have used the bull they too comment that they don't know why his Docility EPD is so low, as their Capitalist calves are also some of the more quiet calves. The Capitalist calves were my favorite sire group last year. Big-middle, thick, good feet, and they slicked off well this summer. Capitalist daughters have a reputation for having tight udders and smaller teats. The only two negative comments I have heard on the bull is one guy thought he was too small framed; but that didn't hurt us as we used him on a little larger cows that were Gelbvieh influenced. Another Angus breeder commented that they didn't have enough growth for him, but I don't know if that comment comes from experience of using Capitalist, or if that was simply his opinion based on Capitalist's YW EPD. Our calves had good growth, but we didn't have a large contemporary group.

We have a really nice steer out of him right now. Our calves out of him came early 1-10 2-11 1-15 days early.

 

[wildcat2154]

Connealy Thunder is a very good sire who I think is a bit under rated. Yes his growth isn't as high as some sires, but he sires moderate cattle, great feet, disposition and daughters have great udders. Capitalist makes them thick for sure, I have seen some very calm offspring and a few high strung ones too.

 

[boondocks]

Thanks for the additional thoughts, all! I'm looking more closely at Hoover Elation and a couple others as well...decisions decisions...