opinions?

[hillsdown]

Alex, if you like him then see how he grows, you can always cut them off, but you cannot put them back on..hind sight does not help at all in these cases, once they are gone, they are gone for good.. ;-)

Good luck ,who knows you may have a diamond in the rough.. :wave:

Keep us all updated..

 

[alexfarms]

Alex, if you like him then see how he grows, you can always cut them off, but you cannot put them back on..hind sight does not help at all in these cases, once they are gone, they are gone for good.. ;-)

Good luck ,who knows you may have a diamond in the rough.. :wave:

Keep us all updated..

I think they are worth the effort. If I hadn't had some experience with the Miles City Line 1's I probably would never have recognized any potential in the King Dominos at all. I really don't think the King Dominos will be accepted much within the breed untill they have some kind of show ring success and that may be quite a ways off. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[alexfarms]

I know we've talked here about the relative importance of EPD's vs phenotype etc. Most of us agreed that there should be a combination of the two.

As a beginner I hesitate to say much about anyone else's bull.

However, since the EPD link was posted above, I looked at the EPD graph: http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...91CE6E43208000E3E18E83B02E914151D1C1F1F111017

A couple things jump out even to me: This bull is in the bottom 10% of the breed in scrotal circumference and very very low in rib eye area, WW, YW, etc. These EPD's maybe be low accuracy but even at low accuracy, bottom 10% in these very measureable traits is one of the things EPD's are supposed to identify....

Maybe my inexperience is showing, but I don't see how he can be considered a keeper as a herd sire with so many numbers that low. jmho.

Jim, you can completely disregard the EPDs on this calf. He's from a line of cattle that has had almost no interaction, performance-wise, with the mainstream contemporary Hereford genepool. His EPDs probably have no relevance, and certainly have no reliability, in what his own performance is and what his progeny would be. Cattle from breeders like Richard Day and Jim Lents would be the same way.

Thanks for the opinions. I have been back and forth on this calf for quite some time. He is far from perfect.

The youngest bull in his pedigree ancestry was born over 32 years ago. The epds don't have much recent data behind them and I am surprised how growthy he appears. He is still on the cow. I think if he was put on a full feed of corn, he probably would perform very well and that is what happens to most feeder cattle in this part of the world. I like his conformation and I have always been impressed by the depth of his hind flank, which may be more noticable when he is moving. His daughters probably would be good cows judging from his maternal ancestry. He needs better color markings, better muscling, better masculinity and yet to see how he does grow out. I have not gotten him to stand reasonably well enough to get any kind of good representation of his appearance from behind, but todays market will probably want him thicker. I hadn't criticized his depth of rib, I will have to watch that.

I am limited in what is available to use and still stay within the line, so he may stay around to see how he turns out. Thanks again for the opinions.

John, I'd say you have a good handle on your evaluation of this calf. Like Knersie and CPL, I see some value and potential there.

And I'm always glad to see someone working to preserve and maintain some of those "old" lines of Hereford cattle.

George

George,

I trust there is some logic to what you are saying, even if I don't understand it.

However Scrotal Circumference is Scrotal Circumference. It doesn't require years of experience, just a tape measure.

And I would think that SC is one thing there might be agreement here on that SC size is important and an indicator of fertility and time to maturity of his offspring....

This bull either has SC or he doesn't. As the EPD shows him in the BOTTOM 10% OF THE BREED I think I'd get out a tape measure and see. Are you telling me that for some reason this bull will have much higher SC than the EPD predicts? If so I would think it would be very useful to get out a tape measure and see.

Jerry Huth and my limited experience has me convinced SC is very important. Rereading above, if the pedigree behind this bull is so old that numbers are meaningless then why have him in the EPD pool affecting the data on others?

Jim

I weaned the bull today. I put a tape on his scrotal. I came up with 28.6cm and that is just under 8 months. That really isn't too bad is it? I was disappointed in his weight 615#, but he is thin. I am thinking of sending him to a bull test. He has some age on him, that would help, and it would be interesting to see how he would perform if pushed.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Line breeding unsound weak made cattle is bordering on the ridiculous or the sublime-look at the British Royal Family for crying out loud. I could care less who is granddad was-the bull wouldn't make a season on most ranches breeding cows-he's way more bad than good. i'd quit extrapulating and pontificating and get the nuts out of him-if you can find some. the bull isn't good enough on his feet and legs to be a bull-all the corn in the world won't make him thick and he's borderline for scrotal circunferance-I don't know about you but that kind of rules him out in my books.

 

[Ryder]

Sorry Doc, but I'm going to disagree with you. The bull lacks depth, spring of rib, and muscle. He is also fine boned and cow headed. He does have a nice topline though.

I completely agree with your well stated observations. The thing that jumps out is that he is way too shallow.

 

[Australian]

Steer material. Don't waste too much time you will be disappointed. He's too much like a heifer,little thickness and very white eyed.

 

[alexfarms]

Line breeding unsound weak made cattle is bordering on the ridiculous or the sublime-look at the British Royal Family for crying out loud. I could care less who is granddad was-the bull wouldn't make a season on most ranches breeding cows-he's way more bad than good. i'd quit extrapulating and pontificating and get the nuts out of him-if you can find some. the bull isn't good enough on his feet and legs to be a bull-all the corn in the world won't make him thick and he's borderline for scrotal circunferance-I don't know about you but that kind of rules him out in my books.

You make some good points. But 28.6cm scrotal at 8 months.....I wouldn't call that nutless. The BSE only requires 30cm at a 12 months and alot can change in 4 months. I am not in love with the animal and his markings probably would only allow me to use him on a few conservatively marked cows. " Line breeding unsound weak made cattle"....what is unsound about him?

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well if you'll breed Hereford cattle on their markings you might as well sellpaint horses-I like eye and udder pigment but afyter that iut doesn't muchmatter-were in the business of selling beef not seat covers. The bu;ll to me looks way to straight legged-I always visualize what they'll look like after breeding cows in a commercial enviroment-I have a feeling he'd come in tired and sore. Minimum scrotal circumference might get you bye but not always. A yearling should be able to breed at least 25-30 cows out on the grass with no suplement-if not he's an overpriced companion. Think of him as a tank if he goes into battle with a half filled magazine and loses a track halfway through he's not going to win the battle of getting cows bred. I just don't see what he'd improve in a cowherd-really don't like that 'grip of death' in the heart girth.

 

[alftn]

I like him...now on a reg. herd, he maybe a weak choice, might be better bulls...Put him on black cows and you will see what he got...Get more opinions from other hereford breeder. Also more pictures might help....

 

[JHH]

I like him...now on a reg. herd, he maybe a weak choice, might be better bulls...Put him on black cows and you will see what he got...Get more opinions from other hereford breeder. Also more pictures might help....

I hate to say it but I think he needs to be a steer. Another pic will probably just confirm that. On commercial cows he would work and growth on a cross would probably be ok. JHH

 

[edrsimms]

Thanks for the opinions. I have been back and forth on this calf for quite some time. He is far from perfect.

The youngest bull in his pedigree ancestry was born over 32 years ago. The epds don't have much recent data behind them and I am surprised how growthy he appears. He is still on the cow. I think if he was put on a full feed of corn, he probably would perform very well and that is what happens to most feeder cattle in this part of the world. What would he do without corn? fall to pieces is my bet I like his conformation and I have always been impressed by the depth of his hind flank, which may be more noticable when he is moving. His daughters probably would be good cows judging from his maternal ancestry. He needs better color markings, better muscling, better masculinity and yet to see how he does grow out. I have not gotten him to stand reasonably well enough to get any kind of good representation of his appearance from behind, but todays market will probably want him thicker. I hadn't criticized his depth of rib, I will have to watch that.

I am limited in what is available to use and still stay within the line, so he may stay around to see how he turns out. Thanks again for the opinions.

 

[alexfarms]

Thanks for the opinions. I have been back and forth on this calf for quite some time. He is far from perfect.

The youngest bull in his pedigree ancestry was born over 32 years ago. The epds don't have much recent data behind them and I am surprised how growthy he appears. He is still on the cow. I think if he was put on a full feed of corn, he probably would perform very well and that is what happens to most feeder cattle in this part of the world. What would he do without corn? fall to pieces is my bet I like his conformation and I have always been impressed by the depth of his hind flank, which may be more noticable when he is moving. His daughters probably would be good cows judging from his maternal ancestry. He needs better color markings, better muscling, better masculinity and yet to see how he does grow out. I have not gotten him to stand reasonably well enough to get any kind of good representation of his appearance from behind, but todays market will probably want him thicker. I hadn't criticized his depth of rib, I will have to watch that.

I am limited in what is available to use and still stay within the line, so he may stay around to see how he turns out. Thanks again for the opinions.

First of all, if you want to make a statement the least you could do is take credit for it instead of changing my "quote". The calf hasn't had any grain yet and he is still upright. How do your finish you cattle? In this area they need to have enough growth to perform on grain.