Opinions on this bull

[3waycross]

Here are the breed averages and percentiles for EPD's Draw your own conclusion.

http://redangus.org/genetics/epd-percentiles

 

[DOC HARRIS]

unless i am misunderstanding the epd's, an 8 on ced is an easy calving bull

jerry-

Here is a direct quotation and explanation of "Calving Ease Direct (CED) EPD: ---"is expressed as a difference in percentage of unassisted births, with a higher value indicating greater calving ease in first-calf heifers. It predicts the average difference in ease with which a sire's calves will be born when he is bred to first-calf heifers".

The study of EPD's is a very difficult one, and can easily be construed as meaning many things which, in reality, may not be factual. The science is deep, complicated in fact, and can be easily misconstrued, misunderstood and misinterpreted because of its ambiguity. In preparation for knowing the legitimate and pure definite interpretations of the Science of "Expected Progeny DIFFERENCES (please note the emphasis on DIFFERENCES), the mandatory requirements are to be exact and precise in all conversations and discussions regarding EPD's - throughout! The brutal fact of the matter is that few beef cattle breeders actually know the true definitions of all of the EPD's which are in current use, and when they ASSUME that they know what they are saying is true or even close to factual, they are not 100% correct. I cannot blame, or pass adverse judgement on anyone who is even slightly tangental to the true facts regarding the absoluteness of 'understanding" the intricate workings of EPD's in Beef Cattle selections and matings. The basics are AMBIGUOUS, and that fact should be thoroughly understood in ANY discussion regarding same!

jerry- to answer your question more directly here, a reading of 8 relating to CED predicts the average difference in ease with which a sire's calves will be born when he is bred to first-calf heifers!

Words mean things, and to understand the "things is to preclude misunderstandings and specious arguments!

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

OK Doc now tell him if you would breed this bull to any given heifer, and expect to not have to pull the calf.ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL

 

[DOC HARRIS]

OK Doc now tell him if you would breed this bull to any given heifer, and expect to not have to pull the calf.ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL -

3waycross-

GOOD COMMENT! This exemplifies the very admonition of the properties of EPD's, and understanding their usages! A GOOD cattle breeder will utilize his knowledge of the CED of "..any given heifer", as well as all of the other known EPD's, Functional Traits, and Phenotype of our "example heifer" before combining them with those of the so-called "Calving ease" bull!

You might have to" pull the calf" if OTHER factors that have not been taken into consderation are prevalent - environmental, weather (-30 below ZERO) :help: , some physical impairment of the heifer in question, acts of SATAN (NOT GOD!) obstreperous or recalcitrant herd mates - - there are a host of possibilities that will cause trouble in calving! That's is where the experience of the herdsman comes to the fore!

Knowledge, and the proper use of it is POWER!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aero]

OK Doc now tell him if you would breed this bull to any given heifer, and expect to not have to pull the calf.ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL

CED is just a probability differential.

if you have a 10 point difference from one animal to the other, there is a 10% difference in probability of calving problems.

the 10 point lower bull will have a 10% higher chance of calving problems. the CED measurement means nothing when you are talking about a few particular births; it is only useful on groups.

 

[3waycross]

Any chance of gettin a straight answer from ANYBODY.

It's not that hard just say yes or no.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Any chance of gettin a straight answer from ANYBODY.

It's not that hard just say yes or no.

Straight Answers:

Small phenotype heifer - NO
Large phenotype heifer- PROBABLY
Any "Acceptable Phenotype" COW- ABSOLUTELY
Any "UNacceptable Phenotype" cow (just to "see what happens") SELL THE COW!

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

I am not trying to be a jerk or anything but the OP made a statement and that is where I was headed with my questions his statement was, I'm looking for a heifer bull to AI with.. Pretty straight forward.

Based on that statement my answer is simple and straight forward. NO

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I am not very good either but I would like to give an opinion just to see if I right.
I think he is to course shouldered and maybe straight shouldered. He could come down just a little in the flank. Please critique my critique.

Novatech-
Being used with some breeding programs, this bull could use a little more length in his rump from the hooks to the pins, but that is subjection. It is not a severe criticism. He is a little 'wide' through the shoulders, but I don't see it as being "course" shouldered enough to cause calving problems consisently. In relationship to his flank depth - he is deep enough in proportion. If he were any deeper in the flank, it would probably cause him walking difficulties - and we don't need to have that problem in our breeding bulls! He has well developed muscularity throughout, from his crest through to his lower hindquarters and gaskins. This characteristic is in response to the production of testosterone which stimulates nitrogen retention; medium length legs as the result of male hormones stopping growth of the 'long bones', thereby giving the leg bones a wider and thicker appearance. This is necessary to support the bull during mating. There is a reason for everything! GOD made NO mistakes - just differences.

All in all, I think that this bull would help most average herds, mated to the optimal females.

DOC HARRIS

 

[novatech]

Novatech-
Being used with some breeding programs, this bull could use a little more length in his rump from the hooks to the pins, but that is subjection. It is not a severe criticism. He is a little 'wide' through the shoulders, but I don't see it as being "course" shouldered enough to cause calving problems consisently.
Shoulders are something I have been working on (trying to learn) since I came onto the boards. I have gone as far as to make a template for proper shoulder angle. It seems to be a matter of being able to see through the muscle mass an visualize the bone structure. Developing an eye for this, so to speak.
In relationship to his flank depth - he is deep enough in proportion. If he were any deeper in the flank, it would probably cause him walking difficulties - and we don't need to have that problem in our breeding bulls!
I have read comments on the boards from some desiring a straighter line across the bottom. This has always been my preference. 40- 50 years ago many of the bulls were a lot straighter. As frame scores went up over the years, and cattle seemed to get a lot more leg, it seems like the flank went up with them. Now, as frame scores are tending to come down, it seems like the flank is still up a bit on a lot of the bulls but there are still some with the straight bottom line. I never noticed problems with it.
He has well developed muscularity throughout, from his crest through to his lower hindquarters and gaskins. This characteristic is in response to the production of testosterone which stimulates nitrogen retention; medium length legs as the result of male hormones stopping growth of the 'long bones', thereby giving the leg bones a wider and thicker appearance. This is necessary to support the bull during mating.
No question on this. Between scrotal circumference and muscle mass this is a very masculine bull. Masculine bulls make for feminine females. (My opinion) There is a reason for everything! GOD made NO mistakes - just differences.

All in all, I think that this bull would help most average herds, mated to the optimal females.

DOC HARRIS

Someone else made a comment about the bull being a little tight in the girth. In my opinion the large brisket and the capacity (large gut) may just be making the bull appear tight. Wouldn't the overall depth of the bull give him plenty of girth?
Thanks for the response.