Opinion on bull

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East Caney

East Caney

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I really do appreciate all honesty on the board. Personally, I love the look of a good Brangus or Angus bull. The calves, believe it or not, brought good money out of this bull. They were both weaned early as not to bring down two heifers too much. One weighed 410 and brought 1.49/lb. The other weighted 295 and brought 1.83/lb Honestly, when I saw the bull the day I took this picture, I thought he looked rough too. I was just down on the place this weekend, and the bull was looking much better. As soon as I get back to my home computer, I'll upload more pictures of the cows. I can tell you now, these aren't $1200-$1300 cows, but I think they're going to give me the calves I need to start a beef operation slowly. I have a grey brahman crossed heifer that'll eat out my hands (whether that's good or bad).
 

ALACOWMAN

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East Caney":33hzke1a said:
I really do appreciate all honesty on the board. Personally, I love the look of a good Brangus or Angus bull. The calves, believe it or not, brought good money out of this bull. They were both weaned early as not to bring down two heifers too much. One weighed 410 and brought 1.49/lb. The other weighted 295 and brought 1.83/lb Honestly, when I saw the bull the day I took this picture, I thought he looked rough too. I was just down on the place this weekend, and the bull was looking much better. As soon as I get back to my home computer, I'll upload more pictures of the cows. I can tell you now, these aren't $1200-$1300 cows, but I think they're going to give me the calves I need to start a beef operation slowly. I have a grey brahman crossed heifer that'll eat out my hands (whether that's good or bad).
dont let those high prices fool you on the baby's they will almost aways if there decent average more per pound than your 5-6 weight feeders.seeing him in this shape has its benefits let's you see his overall makeup and i would put some weight on him then ship em
 

norriscathy

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East Caney":3oo7pwfu said:
I really do appreciate all honesty on the board. Personally, I love the look of a good Brangus or Angus bull. The calves, believe it or not, brought good money out of this bull. They were both weaned early as not to bring down two heifers too much. One weighed 410 and brought 1.49/lb. The other weighted 295 and brought 1.83/lb Honestly, when I saw the bull the day I took this picture, I thought he looked rough too. I was just down on the place this weekend, and the bull was looking much better. As soon as I get back to my home computer, I'll upload more pictures of the cows. I can tell you now, these aren't $1200-$1300 cows, but I think they're going to give me the calves I need to start a beef operation slowly. I have a grey brahman crossed heifer that'll eat out my hands (whether that's good or bad).

We are in your same area and our average 205 day weaning weight is over 500 pounds and our Gelbvieh calves bring in the $150 range (cwt) at Oklahoma City.
 

J. T.

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norriscathy":z020z0nv said:
We are in the same general location as you are. We bought a place here 10 years ago and lost several cows before we could figure out what the problem was. An EXTREMELY heavy worm load. We had been worming twice a year; once with Ivomec Plus and once with Cydectin. Not enough! We switched to worming with Ivomec Plus in the spring and Valbazen in the fall with each worming followed 60 days later with SafeGuard Blocks. After three years of worming 4 times a year we broke the cycle. we are now back to twice a year for everything except replacement hefiers. In spite of what the market "Powers to BE" say we have also found that Black cattle will not work here. We bought some of the finest Angus cattle in the world from Iowa and in our 110 degree plus summers they just wilt!
When I was a teenager I lived in Lone Oak in Hunt County. We had an Angus bull, but we were the only ones in the area that did. Back then, (late ' 70's) everyone was running Horned Herefords, Beefmasters, Brafords, and Brahmans as herd sires. Angus bulls were few and far between. Not saying they couldn't thrive there.....they just weren't popular.
 

Caustic Burno

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DOC HARRIS":3rk72xh1 said:
milkmaid":3rk72xh1 said:
Oh, come on guys, don't you think you're being a little too hard on him? after all, he might look a little better with 300 extra pounds...:lol: :p ;-)

Before:
LimousinBull.jpg


After the "weight gain"
LimoBullmod.JPG


I must have a little too much time on my hands tonight...:lol:
To answer your original question - NO, we are NOT being too hard on him - the Bull(?) OR the owner of the cows! We are doing the cow owner no favors to mealy-mouth around about the bull, whether or not his picture has been "doctored" or not! He should have been castrated a long time ago, and the only fact that this male bovine presents is to embarrass the owner, and the Limousin Breed Association. If we are going to try to help new breeders with their FUTURE in the beef BUSINESS - we MUST tell them the truth. And the truth about this animal is - HE SHOULD NOT BREED A COW - - - OF any BREED!

DOC HARRIS

Well put Doc that is one poor bull should have never been put in the breeding pool.
 

norriscathy

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Don't be happy with a 410# calf! If one of our cows can't average at least 475# (no creep) she's gone to the sale barn. A 205 day weight of 295# is worst than bad!!!! I've seen an orphaned twin do better than that.
 
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East Caney

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The calves were 4 and 5 months old. As I stated, they were weaned early. I don't know that I've ever seen a 205 wt of 295 lbs. Anyway, from what I can see, it'll be beneficial to start looking for a bull before my cows begin calving late Feb. Should the bull be pulled for 3 months and feed before being sold?
 

DOC HARRIS

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East Caney":3gtehirs said:
The calves were 4 and 5 months old. As I stated, they were weaned early. I don't know that I've ever seen a 205 wt of 295 lbs. Anyway, from what I can see, it'll be beneficial to start looking for a bull before my cows begin calving late Feb. Should the bull be pulled for 3 months and feed before being sold?
I think that would depend on your facility, your feed costs, how convenient it is for you to isolate your bull from your females so as to prevent any further pregnancy's, and your labor costs (if out-of -pocket). You might detemine what the bull will bring today, figure all your costs involved in feeding him out, and then estimate what he will bring at that time. Is the profit worth the effort? - - Maybe! If not - - sell him now and use that money as a PART of the purchase price of a BETTER bull - -BUT - make darned sure that you acquire a BETTER bull than the one we are talking about here. Do some extensive reading and studying and educate yourself concerning what a GOOD BULL really is - - not just what you THINK a good bull is! Don't be BARN BLIND. Being 'barn blind' means that you are unable to accept the fact that your own 'stuff' is worthless. You just can't 'see' it! Beef Breeding is NOT a game! It is a BUSINESS, and you have to work diligently to be objective and honest with yourself and admit your shortcomings in order to overcome them and benefit accordingly. The most important aspect of this exercise is that you saturate yourself with the features of what optimal beef cattle are and use them to YOUR advantage!

There are many different ways to achieve the above objectives, however one of the easiest and most interesting methods is to request registered sale catalogs, devour them word for word, determine in your mind what the sale animals are worth, and then compare your estimates with the real totals that they brought at sale time! It is fun, educational and inexpensive. It indelibly implants an image in your mind that you can use as a template in the future in comparing one animal with another. :D

Have fun and improve your bottom line!

DOC HARRIS
 
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East Caney

East Caney

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Doc,

I sure appreciate the bit of advice. There's a wealth of knowledge on this board, and I'm trying to soak it up. To all of you, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll definitely be looking for a way to improve! Thanks again.
 

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Most markets will be opening on Monday - the only thing that needs to get to the market before this bull is the truck that's hauling him. Adding weight is not the problem with this bull, he has some basic frame issues that SHOULD have prevented him from ever being selected as a herd bull.
There are way too many good bulls available to keep this one.
Listen to Doc - do some homework - decide what kind of bull you want and what is going to work for you.
Then find a breed - specific sale and spend some money for a QUALITY animal that you can be proud of.
 

DOC HARRIS

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East Caney":enkdoln9 said:
Doc,

I sure appreciate the bit of advice. There's a wealth of knowledge on this board, and I'm trying to soak it up. To all of you, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll definitely be looking for a way to improve! Thanks again.
If every beef breeder had as positive and open-minded attitude as East Caney about their operations, we might be able to supply the HIGH QUALITY BEEF DEMAND which, as we speak, is exceeding the supply and is going to get even more so! Japan, Hong Kong, Korea is open now. And there will be more in the future! And, as of yesterday, CAB requested producers to IMPROVE the quality of their feeder calves so as to meet CAB requirements, because their demand was more than they can supply!! Hello!! What part of "Improve your quality!" is hard to comprehend?

DOC HARRIS
 

kvcanes

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East Caney I think you can see the general theme in the replies to your original post. Cattlemen are very passionate towards their industry and although they may be critical and opinionated to a fault, more times than not they are only trying to help or improve their industry. I'm not going to deviate from the common thread in that your 3 yr old bull is probably better suited for slaughter than breeding. He has alot of physical short comings relative to other (affordable) bulls that are out there. As guardians of the cattle industry we've done an excellent job of telling you to replace this bull, but we've done a poor job of actually helping you or advancing our suggestions beyond the first stage. Sometimes in this industry it's tough to see the forest from all the trees. I hope this post not only helps you identify the realm of possibilities and strategies, but also encourages additional helpful input from others. There are some very knowledgable participants on this message board. First, as it relates to your current bull, I'd try and feed him and put some weight back on him. Reference Doc's reply for thoughts on whether it makes sense for you to do this. Commodity prices are low and cattle prices are high. The gap between the two is larger now than it has been in any other time in history. Simply put, you will be putting on pounds at a much cheaper price then you will be selling those pounds. I'd talk to my local extension office and get a feed program set for the bull so that he gets the proper nutrition and proper amount of feed each day. If it's feasible to keep him and feed him, then you can effectively offset a greater portion of the purchase price of the next bull and do it efficiently.

Secondly, research is the key to developing your herd and your competencies as a cattleman. Read, read, and read. However, reading is not a sole means to an end. Your readings should spur questions. And do NOT be afraid to pick up the phone and contact an expert or someone you've never spoke with. From my experiences, these guys are next to impossible to get off the phone. They are excited to share their knowledge and give meaningful advice and ask for nothing in return except a "thank you".

In addition, failing to plan in planning to fail. You need to identify what you are trying to accomplish or achieve in this industry and then begin your research. You have basically two fundamental approaches to choose from and from there things get defined to a greater extent. You either want to breed for market or breed for preference. If you want to breed for the local market, then you need to research what type of animals sell best in your area or an area where you market your calves. Remember, it's not the price per lbs, but rather the total $$$ per head. Then research your options to determine the most efficient means of producing these type of cattle. Conversly, if you breed for a specific purpose (replacement heifers, personal breed preference etc.) other than profit maximization, then you may need to research where the best markets are for these cattle so you can maximize their value.

I hope these abbreviated suggestions help. And remember you have to crawl before you can walk.
 

kvcanes

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DOC HARRIS":29fb8yha said:
East Caney":29fb8yha said:
Doc,

I sure appreciate the bit of advice. There's a wealth of knowledge on this board, and I'm trying to soak it up. To all of you, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll definitely be looking for a way to improve! Thanks again.
If every beef breeder had as positive and open-minded attitude as East Caney about their operations, we might be able to supply the HIGH QUALITY BEEF DEMAND which, as we speak, is exceeding the supply and is going to get even more so! Japan, Hong Kong, Korea is open now. And there will be more in the future! And, as of yesterday, CAB requested producers to IMPROVE the quality of their feeder calves so as to meet CAB requirements, because their demand was more than they can supply!! Hello!! What part of "Improve your quality!" is hard to comprehend?

DOC HARRIS



Doc, nice post about CAB and improving the quality of cowherds. However, the reach to improve the quality of cattle in the U.S. is being negated and smothered by current market dynamics and tradition. In my opinion CAB is fighting an uphill battle in the foreseeable future.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Don't know why, but I can't open page 3 of this thread, so I'm jumping in after page 2.
I totally agree with Bez & Doc.
Doc tends to be a little fancier with his words.
If you are used to looking at poor quality cattle, and don't know that they are poor, you have a poor image of what is good in your mind. The cow in the background looks in poor condition from what little I can see of her.
Like Doc says, get catalogs. Take pics of your cows & put them next to the pics in the catalogs. See the difference? We would like to see more pics of your cattle.
Get in touch with your local beef extension office & start going to meetings if you really want to learn.
Now, maybe we're getting way ahead of ourselves. You may not really want to "breed" cattle, just propogate them for a hobby & a little cash flow. If so, that's fine. But "breeding" cattle takes a lot of effort.
 

kvcanes

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":7hwgko0g said:
Don't know why, but I can't open page 3 of this thread, so I'm jumping in after page 2.
I totally agree with Bez & Doc.
Doc tends to be a little fancier with his words.
If you are used to looking at poor quality cattle, and don't know that they are poor, you have a poor image of what is good in your mind. The cow in the background looks in poor condition from what little I can see of her.
Like Doc says, get catalogs. Take pics of your cows & put them next to the pics in the catalogs. See the difference? We would like to see more pics of your cattle.
Get in touch with your local beef extension office & start going to meetings if you really want to learn.
Now, maybe we're getting way ahead of ourselves. You may not really want to "breed" cattle, just propogate them for a hobby & a little cash flow. If so, that's fine. But "breeding" cattle takes a lot of effort.

Well put.
 
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East Caney

East Caney

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I've stepped into this business with the mind frame that I will do what is necessary to be successful and produce calves for the beef market that will be of high quality. I have to come in with an open mind so I can learn from some of the "old heads" in the industry. I'm going down to the place tomorrow to put out some hay and feed some range cubes. I'll try to get some good pictures of the cows to bring back and post. Also, I'll try to get a picture of the bull as he's put on some weight. He looked better last weekend, but you know that doesn't say much after the pic from Thanksgiving.
 

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E. Caney....welcome, Doc really brought up a good point about being "barn blind", I bought a yearling red angus bull last spring that I thought looked all right for my budget. His rear didn't catch up to his front, I knew he was weak in the rear but couldn't see how bad he really is. I got the confirmation that I was looking for when I posted pics...now "Sam the Steer" has taken up residence in the finishing pen and has earned a place in the late spring production line-up. We're probably going AI this season.
Dave Mc
 
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East Caney

East Caney

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Noooooo....not his manhood. :) Well, I've got 2-3 months to get something together and get him out of there before my first cows calve and start back cycling. I'm sure my dad wouldn't mind selling his bull and buying a couple of cows if I'm putting a bull in that will improve the herd. He'll be keeping replacement heifers, so he'd probably like that quite a bit. He's an Angus fan, and he was talking about switching back anyway.
 

El_Putzo

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Just a suggestion, but why not talk to your dad about putting in a little money on the bull you intend to buy. That might give you more buying power, since you seem to want to share the bull anyway. Just a though.
 

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