Online 122L Heifers -- Recommend Bull

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rocket2222":38hmwouk said:
If you don't mind, what was the son's dam name?

RCH L1 Dominette 1015

Two more questions if you don't mind:

(1) Did you happen to contact any of the other ET flushing owners which have the same source genetics?

(2) Did the ask the breeder to offer a refund of your purchase transaction funds?
 
No, by selecting those descendants that don't have those "faults" and breeding them to each other, you are hoping to "set in" those GOOD traits that a bull like Online possesses and also totally eliminate or reduce the faults. If a fault doesn't show up when mating two related descendants, there is a chance that you've eliminated that fault. Through further selection in linebreeding future generations, the good traits can be maintained and improved and the faults reduced and eliminated.

George

Thanks George, but I've always thought the idea was you get the genetics right [ using all the genetic tools available ] before you start linebreeding, in other words, breed only the very best to the best, to see real improvements. Not use linebreeding to weed out pre-established bad genetics, which means you started the linebreeding with something a lot less than the very best. I could have started my linebreeding program years ago if I'd known you could just breed a couple of half breds together. :) Geez! Now you have made me forget what Onlines good traits were, Oh, he adds length, and he has a few daughters with good udders, man, thats hard to find these days. :lol:
 
"HerefordSire"

Two more questions if you don't mind:

(1) Did you happen to contact any of the other ET flushing owners which have the same source genetics?

(2) Did the ask the breeder to offer a refund of your purchase transaction funds?


I think I answered these questions last year, have you been sneaking But-lites into that dry county again :) No and No, he's Alpo, and I hope the dogs enjoyed him.
 
day943bull-1.jpg


This is the day bull that Greenwillow was talking about. I like him in the pic but I think you guys will say he is to post legged. I wouldnt hesistate on using him on your heifers. JHH

As for more info on Neon I do not have anything other than seeing several calves and talking with Brent and Robin at Upstream Ranch. Note Brent likes Shadow better than Neon as far as calves go. He says that Neon does everthing except clean up the front end. JHH
 
Brandonm22":2f9kwhnk said:
Unless Denver has changed considerably since the last time I was there(and it has been a lot of years), the judges look ONLY at the phenotype (ie what they see). They ignore the pedigree, the EPDs, the performance numbers, the genotype testing, the relatives, the breeder, etc. Cattle judging in its purest form is finding the bull with the strongest top line, the longest stride, the widest tracking, thickest muslced, most eye appealing bull in the ring that day. I might not use the national champion because I don't like his birth weight EPD, his mama's udder, or his great grandaddy; but the judge is not supposed to consider any of that.


Epd's are used in the selection process at all major Hereford shows. And it seems like who the breeder is still tacks on a few points here and there. :)
 
I think I answered these questions last year, have you been sneaking But-lites into that dry county again :) No and No, he's Alpo, and I hope the dogs enjoyed him.

What makes you think you can't drink butt limes in a bible belt county? Funny, but in this dry county, there are 10 or so drug stores that sell to many of the people that attend one of 45 or so churches. In other words, drinking in public is not allowed but you can take as many valiums as you want because the church going lawmakers don't drink. Please slap me if I ask you again next year. :mrgreen:
 
Brandonm22":3ky4tk9s said:
Unless Denver has changed considerably since the last time I was there(and it has been a lot of years), the judges look ONLY at the phenotype (ie what they see). They ignore the pedigree, the EPDs, the performance numbers, the genotype testing, the relatives, the breeder, etc. Cattle judging in its purest form is finding the bull with the strongest top line, the longest stride, the widest tracking, thickest muslced, most eye appealing bull in the ring that day. I might not use the national champion because I don't like his birth weight EPD, his mama's udder, or his great grandaddy; but the judge is not supposed to consider any of that.

I know it is getting past my bedtime....but...what if I named a bull out of one of these Online heifers "666 TITAN 15G L9 666". Would you buy him at a reasonable price if he was first place at Denver in his class? :mrgreen:
 
JHH":23lr2r3r said:
day943bull-1.jpg


This is the day bull that Greenwillow was talking about. I like him in the pic but I think you guys will say he is to post legged. I wouldnt hesistate on using him on your heifers. JHH

As for more info on Neon I do not have anything other than seeing several calves and talking with Brent and Robin at Upstream Ranch. Note Brent likes Shadow better than Neon as far as calves go. He says that Neon does everthing except clean up the front end. JHH

Thanks for posting him

Post legged to me is a lack of curvature of the rear above the leg. This bull certainly has plenty of rear above the leg.
 
Steven Pollestad owns the bull and if you want I can give you his Number and let you call or talk to him about semen. I was quoted $15.00 a straw. I didnt inquire about certs so I dont know. That was going to be my next question when I talk to him next.
 
greenwillowhereford II":1kke69h4 said:
Of all the bulls mentioned thus far, Neon and Rambo would probably get my vote. Why not throw Yankee into the mix as well.

Now, given the choice you face, I would unhesitatingly breed them to the Day 943 bull, who would correct EVERY Online flaw besides the eyeset IMO. He would certainly add fertility, doability, and longevity, and should help their marbling scores at the same time. Throw the EPDs out the window on him, he is not from a TPR herd, and I used his half brother and proved that his progeny would outgrow the big name big EPD boys in the same pasture. (Spanked ANL Quest head to head)

I think like you. I would use the bull regardless of EPDs. I think he could do alot of good for a lot of breeders. But then you cant expect everyone to go with the same thing. If that was the case we would all be raising Angus.
 
Unless you have some dirt on him I am not aware of, the biggest problem with Titan was the diluter gene and a lot of people CLAIMED that he was part Simmental (until Titan the Hereford breed did not have the Continentals diluter gene so there may be something to it). I think we have a DNA test for the diluter gene now and I THINK AHA is still registering all the calves, so what is the big deal?
 
JHH":3vtounw7 said:
Steven Pollestad owns the bull and if you want I can give you his Number and let you call or talk to him about semen. I was quoted $15.00 a straw. I didnt inquire about certs so I dont know. That was going to be my next question when I talk to him next.
I've actually talked to and corresponded with Mr. Pollestad in the past also. Mr. Day just returned with a bull out of the Pollestad herd that was sired by 943, the second or so that he has gotten as part of his deal with Steven on the 943 bull.
 
rocket2222":fwhnjdu1 said:
No, by selecting those descendants that don't have those "faults" and breeding them to each other, you are hoping to "set in" those GOOD traits that a bull like Online possesses and also totally eliminate or reduce the faults. If a fault doesn't show up when mating two related descendants, there is a chance that you've eliminated that fault. Through further selection in linebreeding future generations, the good traits can be maintained and improved and the faults reduced and eliminated.

George

Thanks George, but I've always thought the idea was you get the genetics right [ using all the genetic tools available ] before you start linebreeding, in other words, breed only the very best to the best, to see real improvements. Not use linebreeding to weed out pre-established bad genetics, which means you started the linebreeding with something a lot less than the very best. I could have started my linebreeding program years ago if I'd known you could just breed a couple of half breds together. :) Geez! Now you have made me forget what Onlines good traits were, Oh, he adds length, and he has a few daughters with good udders, man, thats hard to find these days. :lol:

Nope! If you waited until you had PERFECTION before you started linebreeding, you'd never start - you would always be "tinkering" with the genetics by constantly introducing outside blood to correct the small faults. That's the trouble with many breeding programs. They are always adding "new blood" in search of breeding that ONE perfect animal and they end up with a genetically cosmopolitan herd that requires a need to AI to ten different bulls to find the best individual matches for all their cows. And too often that one PERFECT animal produced (an outlier!) has a genetic makeup so heterozygous that he/she is almost always a disappointment when put into service. That kind of breeding program can make for a great dispersion sale though! There's usually something there for almost everyone!

I'm not saying there isn't times when the introduction of outside blood might not be necessary(Frank Felton did it several times) but it is usually most effective when introduced to address a particular fault, then followed up by subsequent generations of linebreeding.

The Prospector line is an excellent example of showing that tremendous results can be achieved from a less than perfect beginning. The line was started with animals that carried the recessive gene for dwarfism. Through selection and linebreeding, not only was that gene completely eliminated, but the ancestors of your favorite Hereford bull, 517, were bred.

http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTM

Quoting from this article:

Line breeding narrows the normal genetic distribution curve, producing a more consistent offspring and thus more consistently generating the progress made. Outcrossing widens the normal distribution curve, producing more inconsistency but, through the advantages of hybrid vigor, the overall progress will be more rapid. This rapid progress, however, is not sustained in additional generations unless it is, so to speak, locked in by linebreeding.

Rocket, you can keep searching for that bull to produce that PERFECT offspring - or you could already have him now. But you won't really know how good he is until you can look at some 5 generation pedigrees a decade or so from now, see his name in them 4 or 5 times, and know that the results are better and more consistent than what was started with....maybe still not PERFECT, but much improved in those traits being selected for.

George
 
JHH":32f1sujo said:
day943bull-1.jpg


This is the day bull that Greenwillow was talking about. I like him in the pic but I think you guys will say he is to post legged. I wouldnt hesistate on using him on your heifers. JHH

As for more info on Neon I do not have anything other than seeing several calves and talking with Brent and Robin at Upstream Ranch. Note Brent likes Shadow better than Neon as far as calves go. He says that Neon does everthing except clean up the front end. JHH

He appears to be a very muscular bull. Do you know the frame size and mature weight?
 
Brandonm22":37tb1mii said:
Unless you have some dirt on him I am not aware of, the biggest problem with Titan was the diluter gene and a lot of people CLAIMED that he was part Simmental (until Titan the Hereford breed did not have the Continentals diluter gene so there may be something to it). I think we have a DNA test for the diluter gene now and I THINK AHA is still registering all the calves, so what is the big deal?

Can you find one animal, only one, derived from Titan that has the diluter free symbols by the name? It makes a difference to me. At the same time, I heard something about L9 which is in many animals I am using. Just seems to me, the issues should be corrected sooner than later for all the people investing money in a cross breed when they are thinking the animal is a pure breed. Doesn't seem ethical to me. It is surprising that you don't think it is a big deal.
 
I am sorry Herf. I come from a commercial background. If the bull works, that his great great grandaddy might have been a little (heaven forbid!) "impure" just don't upset me much. If memory serves (and this is stretching it a lot) Titan was ABS's big homerun hitter in the Hereford breed, back in the day. The AHA didn't lay down the law then. Perfection (according to his detractors 1/4 red Holstein) the last I looked he was still in the registry. Fly a lifetime Simmental, Gelbvieh, or Limousin breeder to the states to visit "pure" cattle of the same name in the U.S. and I am not sure he could even recognize them. I think if we were able to DNA test all of our pedigrees we would be surprised how many of them aren't perfect.
 
HerefordSire":3nul6bcw said:
JHH":3nul6bcw said:
day943bull-1.jpg


This is the day bull that Greenwillow was talking about. I like him in the pic but I think you guys will say he is to post legged. I wouldnt hesistate on using him on your heifers. JHH

As for more info on Neon I do not have anything other than seeing several calves and talking with Brent and Robin at Upstream Ranch. Note Brent likes Shadow better than Neon as far as calves go. He says that Neon does everthing except clean up the front end. JHH

He appears to be a very muscular bull. Do you know the frame size and mature weight?

Frame score 5.5, weight 2,300#. Mother now 17, just talked to Day today. He has a "400" bull that is a maternal half brother to 943. I plan to buy one of that bull's sons in DEc.
 
In reply to Brandonmom:

Papers are only as good as the breeder they come from.
That applies to pedigrees, EPD's and performance data.
There are breeders who have pulled hair and had their entire herd tested.

I am proud to be a Hereford breeder and am glad we have a closed book. All these open books make for some great composite cattle but thats all they really are.

I don't know a whole lot about Titan - I was just a little kid and a junior member of the APHA back then. As far as Perfection he is still in the herdbook but he and all his progeny and descendants were to carry a "L" prefix in front of their reg. # making them easily distinguishable for those whom it mattered. It sure would be simple if AHA had handled Titan in a similar way - I bet they wouldn't be cropping up in many sale cattle by now.

I would not use or by an L prefix or any other animal I had reason to believe was impure in its breeding. I don't understand why someone would bother paying for registrations on animals that were not pure in their breeding. I used to breed Herefords along with another breed. That other breed with its open book has long lost its identity in my eyes. I still have some of those cows around and I could paper them as purebreds but I just call em what they are - crossbred cows.

I think we have lost the whole point of a breed class when we have juniors with heifers papered in 2 or more breeds, sizing up the days competion, and deciding what breed to show under. I am glad a Hereford is still a Hereford.
 
Nope! If you waited until you had PERFECTION before you started linebreeding, you'd never start - you would always be "tinkering" with the genetics by constantly introducing outside blood to correct the small faults. That's the trouble with many breeding programs. They are always adding "new blood" in search of breeding that ONE perfect animal and they end up with a genetically cosmopolitan herd that requires a need to AI to ten different bulls to find the best individual matches for all their cows. And too often that one PERFECT animal produced (an outlier!) has a genetic makeup so heterozygous that he/she is almost always a disappointment when put into service. That kind of breeding program can make for a great dispersion sale though! There's usually something there for almost everyone!

I'm not saying there isn't times when the introduction of outside blood might not be necessary(Frank Felton did it several times) but it is usually most effective when introduced to address a particular fault, then followed up by subsequent generations of linebreeding.

The Prospector line is an excellent example of showing that tremendous results can be achieved from a less than perfect beginning. The line was started with animals that carried the recessive gene for dwarfism. Through selection and linebreeding, not only was that gene completely eliminated, but the ancestors of your favorite Hereford bull, 517, were bred.


Rocket, you can keep searching for that bull to produce that PERFECT offspring - or you could already have him now. But you won't really know how good he is until you can look at some 5 generation pedigrees a decade or so from now, see his name in them 4 or 5 times, and know that the results are better and more consistent than what was started with....maybe still not PERFECT, but much improved in those traits being selected for.

George


There is absolutely no way in any shape or form that your post resembles me at all. :roll: :)

PS. Already working on what or who the next bull will be, based on how well this one works. both ways, if he's good, I'll need one to go to the next level, If he doesn't do as well as I hope, his replacement. Sound familiar. :lol:

Thanks George.
 

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