One last topline debate after the last, last topline debate

[KNERSIE]

What are curls ? in spanish please :lol2:
Seriously, explain it a little bit easier for me. Why a curly coat (what ever that means :lol2: ) can make a bull better than other to a given place ?

Knersie,

There is something in that bull (the one I posted) that I don't like and I am not sure what is.. :?
Maybe the bone of the back leg doesn't look too thick near the hoof, or is just the picture ?? :?

Thanks
Lorenzo

He is a little fine boned and a little too straight in the hocks, that adds to his "walking downhill" look. His biggest fault is that he lacks balance in how he is proportioned.

On the coat issue, I have no idea how to describe curls and don't know more than 3 words Spanish. But for Keren's benefit, a softer silkier coat usually indicates an animal better adapted to hot climates. They typically shed earlier in the spring and handle the heat better as it gets reflected to some extent.

For my conditions where we have a very high external parasite pressure and tick borne diseases like babesiosis and gallsickness. The curly coat just makes it too easy for the ticks to get a grip and hold on.

 

[Lorenzo]

Perfect !!!! I understood what curly means !!

I agree with you, there was something in that back leg that was hurting my eye, now I have it clear. Thanks again.

I will post some other Hereford pictures in a new topic, please give me your opinion.

lorenzo

 

[CKC1586]

There have been some really nice cattle posted and I especially like the illustration on the shoulder placement. This is my all time favorite cow:

 

[Lorenzo]

Very nice cow !!!

L

 

[CKC1586]

Very nice cow !!!

L

Thank you very much! I know that alot of folks here don't like em if they aren't black or red but I think there is much to be offered by the Pieds. This cow has been a great producer. I sure hated to see her go but didn't mind cashing the check.

 

[alacattleman]

Here is a yearling heifer with a topline that I like...

she's good all over.. thats a nice heifer

 

[CKC1586]

Here is a yearling heifer with a topline that I like...

alacattleman: I agree that is an impressive yearling!

 

[ROB]

Knersie- i've come to value your opinion dealing with phenotype, and structure. would you comment on the bull i posted a photo of in this thread? thanks.

ROB

With regards to structure only or the complete package?

anything you comment on would be appreciated. i am thinking of using him as an AI sire, but his semen and AI certificates are pretty hefty in price.

ROB

 

[alacattleman]

:hat:View attachment 1

How did you manage to find a Whitefaced Polled Wildebeast??????????

I think that its just a dehorned whitefaced wildebeast, so what is the excitement?[/quote] trust me theres not any, just throwin' in example's ..

 

[KNERSIE]

i've always liked the topline of this bull.

ROB

It's probably the best looking Braunvieh bull I've ever seen, very masculine, very correct, very typical of what a good Continental bull should look like. He looks quite lean and with the shape of his muscle on the round I'll venture a guess that he is probably a bit dry muscled. He'll probably be used best on cows with a little more backfat.

On a personal preference note, and that is really trying to find fleas, I prefer the hooks slightly less prominent in a bull and if I have to fault him on something he could have had a longer hip. With the muscle shape of this bull his hooks is something I often see in my own bulls with similar muscle shape, I still don't prefer it though.

 

[IluvABbeef]

This thread has been quite entertaining and educating for me. I thought I wouldn't have to add anything to this.

That is, until this popped up:

... with the shape of his muscle on the round I'll venture a guess that he is probably a bit dry muscled. He'll probably be used best on cows with a little more backfat.

What do you mean by "dry muscled"? Is it the same thing as saying that he's too lean?



BTW, great-lookin' cattle, everyone.

 

[KNERSIE]

What do you mean by "dry muscled"? Is it the same thing as saying that he's too lean?

Yes for lack of a better way to describe it.

 

[IluvABbeef]

What do you mean by "dry muscled"? Is it the same thing as saying that he's too lean?

Yes for lack of a better way to describe it.

So what's the better way to describe it? ;-) IMF, marbling score, that sort of thing...I don't see how you see he's "too lean" from the picture, because from what I've personally observed, being "too lean" would make him start looking like a belgian blue...without the double muscling factor. And of course to determine if he's too lean would lead to having to use some fancy technology like ultra-sound.

Not trying to challenge you or anything just wondering at how you arrived at the probability that the bull Rob posted was dry muscled.

 

[KNERSIE]

So what's the better way to describe it?

Wish I knew.

IMF, marbling score, that sort of thing...I don't see how you see he's "too lean" from the picture, because from what I've personally observed, being "too lean" would make him start looking like a belgian blue...without the double muscling factor. And of course to determine if he's too lean would lead to having to use some fancy technology like ultra-sound.

All of the above, not just IMF but also backfat, seamfat and other subcutaneous fat. Look at the first bull Lorenzo posted, that is the opposite of one that is harder drier muscled. Continental breeds were traditionally leaner than the British breeds and believe it or not technology and mathematical models isn't the only way to judge an animal.

Not trying to challenge you or anything just wondering at how you arrived at the probability that the bull Rob posted was dry muscled.

At times all you can do is make an (hopefully) educated guess based on previous experience and knowledge. The more you look at cattle the more you'll observe eventually, not everything you think you see will be spot on, but you'll soon be able to be fairly accurate in what you observe.

 

[Roadapple]

If you don't mind, Rob, what's the name of that bull? Heckuva looking bull.

 

[ollie?]

If the stance was natural and the bull wasn't on a halter or in the alert position I agree that the natural position the head is held is about the best indication of straight shoulders for those who can't see the angle of the shoulders underneath the hide.

I've had my share of down headed cattle on a halter, you can't crank a bulls head up for a picture as easily as you suggest. As for longer necked bulls, as with anything I am for balance. The hereford bull is long enough necked to suit me but I prefer the neck on the RA. I guess as far as usefulness, necks weigh something too. You are correct though, most of the difference is aesthetics but if I'm going to own them, I want to like their looks so it's not completely unimportant to me.

 

[ROB]

If you don't mind, Rob, what's the name of that bull? Heckuva looking bull.

swiss-way chinook II.

i've always liked the topline of this bull.

It's probably the best looking Braunvieh bull I've ever seen, very masculine, very correct, very typical of what a good Continental bull should look like. He looks quite lean and with the shape of his muscle on the round I'll venture a guess that he is probably a bit dry muscled. He'll probably be used best on cows with a little more backfat.

On a personal preference note, and that is really trying to find fleas, I prefer the hooks slightly less prominent in a bull and if I have to fault him on something he could have had a longer hip. With the muscle shape of this bull his hooks is something I often see in my own bulls with similar muscle shape, I still don't prefer it though.

Knersie- thank you. you definitely SEE a lot more than most. i agree on the longer hip, but i've yet to find a braunvieh bull that has it and not have a sloped topline on to the tailhead. i'm going to have to do a little research on the leaness/dry muscle/backfat comment though. how does backfat relate to IMF? not to over generalize the breed, it's pretty much a given that braunviehs will carry less than .2 to .25 on the backfat when finished, but still have the ability to maintain a high percentage of choice carcasses. (at least that what i am accostumed to seeing with my own calves) what am i not understanding?

ROB

 

[KNERSIE]

i agree on the longer hip, but i've yet to find a braunvieh bull that has it and not have a sloped topline on to the tailhead.

I don't know the breed well enough to compare him with other bulls of the breed for hip length, I just commented on what I see.

i'm going to have to do a little research on the leaness/dry muscle/backfat comment though. how does backfat relate to IMF?

In beef cattle higher IMF is usually associated with more BF if you have to make a generalisation.

not to over generalize the breed, it's pretty much a given that braunviehs will carry less than .2 to .25 on the backfat when finished, but still have the ability to maintain a high percentage of choice carcasses. (at least that what i am accostumed to seeing with my own calves) what am i not understanding?

Continentals are usually leaner than british breeds, that's part of what made them popular, less waste and more healthy lean meat for the health conscious housewife. As with everything its a give and take situation, if you push either direction to far you are going to give something up in return. Push the BF numbers too low and you're going to lose doing ability, make it too high and you're probably going to lose some muscle and growth. From what I have seen in the few heifers you've posted you can probably use this bull very well, just be aware of the fact that if you continue to push in this direction what you might give up in future generations. As always its about finding the right balance for your situation.

 

[P.A.L]

Knersie: Last year i was about to buy embryos from semex. Sire was this WLB Global. I liked him then and now when i saw these new pictures I'm disappointed that i didnt buy those embryos. My friends did bought some embryos, I need to make some reservations...

About the toplines: Here is Danish Hereford breeding plan. I was browsing it to find new sires. First two keynote sons look a little swaybacks i think. What do you think and would you use any of these bulls? They are all growth monsters...

Link:
http://www.hereford.dk/pdf2008/brugspla ... 101208.PDF

 

[KNERSIE]

Unfortunately they are not the type I like, the photography doesn't do them justice either. If I was forced to use one it would be Burrito by default.