Older Angus semen and epd question?

[JHH]

Ok long story short I have a friend that has been looking at semen to get some foundation females and maybe raise some seedstock bulls (later on).

His question is would he be better off using some of the older bulls and if he does will he lose growth?
And what kind of weights and daughters could he expect?

He has for the most part good cattle. The older ones are registered and he wants to A-I them.

Here is what he is looking at for bulls if he can get semen.

Sitz Alliance 8180

DHD Traveler 6807

GDAR Traveler 71

some Right time bull cant remember which one.

Or should he use the sons of these bulls. Dispostion is important also.

Right now he has mostly frame 6-6.5 frame and they milk good. But he has got rid of some because of udder problems.

What do you Angus guys suggest. JHH

 

[RD-Sam]

Not sure what the price is on some of that semen, but some of it is probably higher than the newer bulls. Why would you want to use the older stuff with all the newer bulls with great EPD's? If I were looking to buy a seedstock bull, the first thing I would look at is the EPD, then look at the phenotype, if both aren't pretty darn good I would keep on looking.

 

[JHH]

Not sure what the price is on some of that semen, but some of it is probably higher than the newer bulls. Why would you want to use the older stuff with all the newer bulls with great EPD's? If I were looking to buy a seedstock bull, the first thing I would look at is the EPD, then look at the phenotype, if both aren't pretty darn good I would keep on looking.

I told him the same thing. He has good cows but he thought he might try and use some of the older bulls and build a foundation. I told him maybe use the sons and still have the pedigree and EPDs.

 

[RD-Sam]

Leachman Right time is $85 a straw, 6807 is limited supply and says call, that means big dollars. Traveler 71 GDAR is $15, that's dirt cheap, and it would make me wonder why it's so cheap.

You could probably find a pedigree with most of those in one bull, if not all in the same pedigree, just gotta do some searching. If I see anything I will let you know, seems like I remember some peds with those combos.

 

[RD-Sam]

Look through these bulls, there are quite a few combinations of the bulls he was interested in. http://angussemen.com/price.asp

 

[robert]

Depends on the bloodlines he already has and what he wants to achieve with using some of the older proven bulls. EPDs aren't everything, some of the latest, greatest are also some of the sorriest, sexless sons of b..... you'll ever see.

Right Time is a great udder improver like his sire EXT, temperament may be an issue but personally we've had no problems with either.

6807 is variable, he can leave a little white and posty legged, udders are generally very good though, we have a Right Time / 6807 herd sire we bred www.tullyfergus.com/herd-bull-alley.htm

T-71 leaves a lot of white, generally those cattle were a little frail, like his son 8180.

Alliance also can sire a bit of white, he leaves excellent females however they can be a little tough to keep getting rebred due to milking ability / fleshing ease however if they get over 3 or 4 yo they'll last forever.

Might consider some of the old GDAR bulls like Rainmaker 340, Traveler 3173 and even Executive 727 (though bw and frame might be an issue with 727).

 

[JHH]

Forgot to add one last night

He ask about a GT Maximum? I dont know if I even have the whole name or spelled right.

I

Look through these bulls, there are quite a few combinations of the bulls he was interested in. http://angussemen.com/price.asp

I will try and look later today,Thank you very much.

 

[Frankie]

Old bulls. We used our last straw of Leachman Right Time last year. I'm usually hoping for bull calves from our cows because we have a better market for bulls than heifers. But this time I was seriously disappointed because she had a bull calf. Right Time cows have done very well for us and if we had the semen, we'd certainly use it.

Traveler 71 was the first AI bull we ever used. His daughters raised whopper calves; they were heavy weaners. But they milked too much for our management (mostly native grass). They had trouble maintaining themselves, milking like they did and breeding back. Plus the one that did manage to stay on the place lost her teeth early. I think she was eight years old when we took her to the sale barn. But she raised some of our best calves during those years. I'm convinced heavy milking cows just don't last as long in the herd as more moderate milkers.

Are you sure about the Alliance 8180 bull? There was a Sitz Traveler 8180 that got a lot of use. We bought a heifer out of him. She was a good cow, but another heavy milker that didn't last as long as we'd like in the herd. Then there's the Sitz Alliance 6595 bull, an 8180 son? Or maybe it's a bull I just never heard of?

GT Max was the first Angus bull I ever saw to have a WW EPD of 100. He was heavily, heavily used in his day. He was a big bull. His daughters didn't have a lot of milk; but they did produce some big calves that gained well on test.

If I had the 6807 semen, I'd use it on the right cows. 'Course we'll be breeding some Midland heifers to B/R New Design 036 this spring. So being old doesn't bother me, if the bull has qualities that I like.

If he doesn't want to use it, there are probably people interested in buying it.

 

[BA]

There is nothing wrong with using old proven bulls. Right Time will produce nice uddered females and 6807 should only be used on the better end. IT is worth a mint. If he doesn't want to use 6807, give me a call - I would use it!

 

[robert]

GT Maximum wouldn't do a lot for udder quality either.

Sitz Traveler 8180 and his son Sitz Alliance 6595, the latter was the better bull.

BCC Bushwacker 41-93 has also worked well for us.

What is your friends reason for going back? Fear of 'new' genetic defects? If so then there is still semen on PS Powerplay, Lovana and Shoshone Viking GD60 out there, all three were proven free of genetic defects.

 

[pdfangus]

GT Maximum wouldn't do a lot for udder quality either.

Sitz Traveler 8180 and his son Sitz Alliance 6595, the latter was the better bull.

BCC Bushwacker 41-93 has also worked well for us.

What is your friends reason for going back? Fear of 'new' genetic defects? If so then there is still semen on PS Powerplay, Lovana and Shoshone Viking GD60 out there, all three were proven free of genetic defects.

Robert,

good to read you over here too.

Robert is a knowledgeable and thoghtful angus breeder and his counsel is wise.

I am old enough to know that the three bulls he mentions above were awesome. I am a long time Power Play fan. I was lucky enough to have my hands on him literally once.

 

[robert]

thanks for the compliment Jim but I'm just a newbie here I know one of the regulars here very well so I thought I'd stop over and see if I can harass her a little!