not all black

[angus9259]

I'm fairly new to the boards. I do raise registered angus cattle, but also have a commercial herd. It's actually surprised me the kind of defensiveness black angus generates in a beef forum like this. I didn't expect it. Especially, I've noticed, registered black angus. So, for some strange psychological reason I need to make an announcement that I'm not against all other breeds or commercial cattle. In fact, here are a couple of shots of two of my favorites . . .

This is one of my favorite heifers - her first calf due soon. She's simi angus and red!!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... ots003.jpg

Here is another one of my favorites (both momma and baby). Momma is an F1 baldy. Baby (being gaurded by momma) is a bcc bushwacker daughter. Imagine that! I can't get away from red no matter how hard I try!!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii11 ... ots006.jpg

 

[CKC1586]

Looks like your cattle have wintered well, where is your snow? What part of Michigan are you in?

 

[angus9259]

SW Mich. 42" of snow in feb - 30" more than normal. Of course, plenty of rain and 40 degree days too.

 

[CKC1586]

SW Mich. 42" of snow in feb - 30" more than normal. Of course, plenty of rain and 40 degree days too.

Feb record was exceeded here too, Lansing area. Guess we haven't lost as much, ground is still covered. A few of those 40 degrees days sure would be appreciated, supposed to be coming end of this next week....

 

[Aero]

Baby (being gaurded by momma) is a bcc bushwacker daughter.

if your saying that calf is from you using the Bushwacker bull, you probably have something wrong with your records.

 

[angus9259]

I only use registered angus semen - her straw was bushwacker. Thought it was crazy too . . . thought about calling Genex on it. But then some folk told me that when using an F1 baldy for a mom, it can happen. Crazy eh?

 

[Aero]

But then some folk told me that when using an F1 baldy for a mom, it can happen. Crazy eh?

they told you wrong unless you have a diluter in there somewhere. Looks like straight colored breeding to me, so I (and science) say(s) that is no Bushwhacker. call Genex, do the parentage test, find out it was the neighbor's bull.

what kind of cleanup bull did you use?

 

[randiliana]

But then some folk told me that when using an F1 baldy for a mom, it can happen. Crazy eh?

they told you wrong unless you have a diluter in there somewhere. Looks like straight colored breeding to me, so I (and science) say(s) that is no Bushwhacker. call Genex, do the parentage test, find out it was the neighbor's bull.

what kind of cleanup bull did you use?

Where do you get the diluter gene from?? That calf is not a diluted calf. It is red, which can easily happen from a black Angus bred to a baldy cow like that, IF the parents BOTH carry the red gene. Now, I have no idea whether the Bushwacker bull carries a red gene, but if he does, that calf is entirely possible. I'd be interested to know how much white mama has on her, are her legs and belly white like the calf's. I've seen stranger things pop up than that calf.

 

[Aero]

which can easily happen from a black Angus bred to a baldy cow like that, IF the parents BOTH carry the red gene. Now, I have no idea whether the Bushwacker bull carries a red gene, but if he does, that calf is entirely possible.

he doesnt carry a red gene.

being a diluter is the only way I have found to get a red calf from a homo black parent. and if you will notice from above:

Looks like straight colored breeding to me

I didnt say it looks like a diluter.

 

[dun]

which can easily happen from a black Angus bred to a baldy cow like that, IF the parents BOTH carry the red gene. Now, I have no idea whether the Bushwacker bull carries a red gene, but if he does, that calf is entirely possible.

he doesnt carry a red gene.

being a diluter is the only way I have found to get a red calf from a homo black parent. and if you will notice from above:

Looks like straight colored breeding to me

I didnt say it looks like a diluter.

That calf is not the result of a diluter gene. That's red and that can only come from a red gene on both sides. The diluter for red is yellow and for black is grey.
Either the bull is a carrier or the neighbors bull is.

 

[randiliana]

which can easily happen from a black Angus bred to a baldy cow like that, IF the parents BOTH carry the red gene. Now, I have no idea whether the Bushwacker bull carries a red gene, but if he does, that calf is entirely possible.

he doesnt carry a red gene.

being a diluter is the only way I have found to get a red calf from a homo black parent. and if you will notice from above:

Looks like straight colored breeding to me

I didnt say it looks like a diluter.

If that calf was a diluter, it would have been either GRAY or TAN. NOT red. It is something you can see, and that calf is as red as any I have ever seen. If Bushwacker doesn't carry the red gene, then the calf cannot be from him. I was only commenting on the color genetics aspect, not on what that bull could or could not have thrown.

 

[Aero]

if only it was that simple.

the dilutor gene determines if the animal is diluted or not.

the dilutor color gene bank determines what shade the animal is if the dilutor gene is present. the gene bank is a set of genes that are most commonly the colors you mention, but after a few crosses can get a red and sometimes a dark red mixed in. if this dark red is in the mix, you can get an animal that is red to the eye (probably brown/red) but has a black gene. this only happens when the dilutor gene is present and in rare circumstances where the color gene bank has been mixed up. Usually a dilutor gene will throw the colors you mention.

again, I didnt say the animal looked like a diluter (mainly because of the blaze); I said it's possible to have an animal that looks red and carries the black gene.

either way, there is little chance the calf is a Bushwhacker.

 

[randiliana]

if only it was that simple.

the dilutor gene determines if the animal is diluted or not.

the dilutor color gene bank determines what shade the animal is if the dilutor gene is present. the gene bank is a set of genes that are most commonly the colors you mention, but after a few crosses can get a red and sometimes a dark red mixed in. if this dark red is in the mix, you can get an animal that is red to the eye (probably brown/red) but has a black gene. this only happens when the dilutor gene is present and in rare circumstances where the color gene bank has been mixed up. Usually a dilutor gene will throw the colors you mention.

again, I didnt say the animal looked like a diluter (mainly because of the blaze); I said it's possible to have an animal that looks red and carries the black gene.

either way, there is little chance the calf is a Bushwhacker.

I am not arguing whether this is a Bushwacker calf or not, I have no idea. You likely know more about that than I so I will concede, that if you say Bushwacker is Homo black, this calf is not out of him.

However, your understanding of color genes is a little off. Black is dominant, it is ALWAYS dominant. A red or tan animal cannot carry the black gene. Red animals only carry red genes. Black animals on the other hand, can carry the red gene, this is where you get the surprises.

There are 2 basic dilution genes, the one found in Charolais, and the one found in Simmental and Gelbveih. The Char gene will make an animal white (or very close to white) if it is homozygous, it will make an animal gray or tan if it is heterozygous. The Simm/Gelb gene works the same way, but with different results in the coloring department. When homo, the animal will be either very light gray or be tan (depending on the base color). When hetero, the animal will be darker gray, or light red. If the animal is black, or dark red that basically means that it does NOT carry a diluter gene. If it is there it will express itself.

 

[angus9259]

No herefords in the neighborhood. No cattle for miles in any direction - I live in a relatively populated area.

I was as surprised as you all seem to be. I follow a pretty strict AI protocol. When I did the AI, there wasn't even a cleanup bull around and the cleanup bull I brought in was a registered angus (expectation son) and showed no interest. She calved right on the AI schedule.

Either bushwacker did this, or the semen I was sent wasn't bushwacker. I initially assumed it wasn't bushwacker till I talked to some folk around here and there didn't seem to be great surprise.

Wrong semen or it's possible are the only two options.

 

[VanC]

Wrong semen or it's possible are the only two options.

I would call Genex. If Bushwacker is homozygous black then that calf cannot be his. Given what you've said, the only thing I can think of is you got the wrong semen. People make mistakes.

 

[randiliana]

No herefords in the neighborhood. No cattle for miles in any direction - I live in a relatively populated area.

I was as surprised as you all seem to be. I follow a pretty strict AI protocol. When I did the AI, there wasn't even a cleanup bull around and the cleanup bull I brought in was a registered angus (expectation son) and showed no interest. She calved right on the AI schedule.

Either bushwacker did this, or the semen I was sent wasn't bushwacker. I initially assumed it wasn't bushwacker till I talked to some folk around here and there didn't seem to be great surprise.

Wrong semen or it's possible are the only two options.

Well, what ever the case, the calf is what it is. I presume it is a commercial heifer, and parentage probably is not that terribly important. She is a pretty decent heifer, no matter her sire.

 

[KMacGinley]

That is a hereford sired calf.

 

[angus9259]

I like her and I'm keepin her . . . even though she ain't black!

 

[highvoltagecattleco]

I cant believe no one asked the following, "Who in their right mind would use $50 semen on a black baldy???" The red calf is interesting using Bushwacker on what should be a terminal cow is the unbelievable part. :wave:

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I cant believe no one asked the following, "Who in their right mind would use $50 semen on a black baldy???" The red calf is interesting using Bushwacker on what should be a terminal cow is the unbelievable part. :wave:

hvcattleco--

If a breeder was planning a three-way crossbreeding protocol of Simangus, Hereford, and it was next in line to use an Angus bull in the rotation, I would think that a mating with Bushwacker would be a reasonable Terminal option. Optimal genetics in ANY kind of breeding selections demand that one use the BEST semen available. $50 semen is not the BEST Angus semen, but Bushwacker is an excellent choice.

. . . .and that calf is NOT a result of a diluter gene.

DOC HARRIS