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No more PowerStroke, at least not from Navistar

DiamondSCattleCo

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Ford, Navistar settle engine dispute, end contract
Engine maker will stop supplying Ford at year's end

Automotive News | January 14, 2009 - 9:00 am EST

CHICAGO (Reuters) -- Ford Motor Co. and Navistar International Corp.,
which have been locked in a dispute over a diesel engine supply contract
for several years, said on Tuesday they had reached a settlement that
brings the legal fight to an end and effectively dissolves a 30-year
partnership.

In a joint statement, the two companies said they had reached an
agreement to "restructure their ongoing business relationship and settle
all existing litigation between the companies."

Navistar is the parent of International Truck & Engine Corp.

They said Navistar's current contract to supply diesel engines to Ford
would not continue beyond year's end, ending a relationship between the
two companies that began in 1979 but broke down in recent years over the
development of a next-generation for Ford's F-150 pickup trucks, a
top-selling vehicle in the U.S. market.

The current diesel engine supply contract, the one dating back to 1979,
will end effective December 31, 2009.

As a result of the settlement, Ford will make an undisclosed payment to
Navistar.

Ford and Navistar said they would continue their diesel engine supply
relationship in South America.

Navistar had claimed in its lawsuit that Ford planned to produce a
4.4-liter diesel engine for the F-150 on its own, a move that it said
violates the contract with Navistar. The suburban Chicago company
claimed it had spent millions of millions of dollars to develop a
next-generation diesel engine for Ford code-named "Lion" for use in the
pickup trucks and other vehicles and sought hundreds of millions of
dollars in damages from the automaker.

Separately, the two sides had sued each other over pricing and warranty
claims related to the current run of diesel engines Navistar has
supplied for Ford's F-Series trucks.

Under the settlement announced Tuesday, Ford and Navistar said they
would continue to collaborate on a number of fronts, they said,
including their Blue Diamond Truck joint venture, a partnership
announced back in 2001 that builds medium duty commercial trucks and
supplies truck and diesel engine parts to dealers.

Navistar ranks No. 52 on the Automotive News list of the top 100 global
suppliers with estimated worldwide sales to automakers of $3.30 billion
in 2007.
 

cfpinz

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Any idea what Ford plans to use after this happens?

I haven't been impressed with the Navistar motors in Fords since they left the 7.3. Never owned a 6.0 but the ones I've rode in and drove didn't impress me for diddly. And whoever decided to cram two turbos on a v-engine and build a pickup around them should be hung by their toenails. I hope Ford puts an inline 6 cyl in next, if not I'll probably get a Dudge if these old clunkers ever give up the ghost.
 

Aaron

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Cowboy 2.0":162fklau said:
The new one is called the 6.5L Scorpion, I think.

Close. Right name, but 6.7L.

cfpinz":162fklau said:
Any idea what Ford plans to use after this happens?

I haven't been impressed with the Navistar motors in Fords since they left the 7.3. Never owned a 6.0 but the ones I've rode in and drove didn't impress me for diddly. And whoever decided to cram two turbos on a v-engine and build a pickup around them should be hung by their toenails. I hope Ford puts an inline 6 cyl in next, if not I'll probably get a Dudge if these old clunkers ever give up the ghost.

Sorry cfpinz. Another V8. There won't be a Dodge on the street by the time your old Ford finally chokes. If you want a 6-inline Cummins, you'll have to tear a 5.9 out of an earlier Dodge and use it. The 6.7L Cummins haven't been getting great reviews, as with any other new diesel. Emission standards and diesels will never mix. :cowboy:
 

DiamondSCattleCo

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Aaron":2pbjyqd8 said:
Sorry cfpinz. Another V8. There won't be a Dodge on the street by the time your old Ford finally chokes. If you want a 6-inline Cummins, you'll have to tear a 5.9 out of an earlier Dodge and use it. The 6.7L Cummins haven't been getting great reviews, as with any other new diesel. Emission standards and diesels will never mix. :cowboy:

<chuckle> Dodge RAM trucks will around until the explodes. Even if Dodge themselves go under, the truck will live on. Its one of the most profitable vehicles on the road, period. Someone, somewhere will buy it.

As for the 6.7, they're getting the kinks in the emissions worked out. I know several 6.7 owners, and they're all very happy with the truck/engine combination.

Rod
 

cfpinz

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Aaron":2xkb7umg said:
Sorry cfpinz. Another V8. There won't be a Dodge on the street by the time your old Ford finally chokes.

From what I've seen, the cummins motors will outlast these Intl units quite a bit, Dodge just can't build a body that holds up around them. I took my wife's Dudge out last night to check on cows, every time I hit a frozen cowpie it sounded like the truck was going to rattle apart.
 

kerley

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If they built a Ford with a Cummins they would have something to brag about. JMO
Tom.
 

brandonm_13

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These Cummins engines are the engines that made Cummins famous. Their quality has been lacking since they tried to cut noise, which was just about unbearable if you worked around them much. The 7.3 was probably the best of the powerstrokes, but the 6.0 wasn't terrible. It was just designed to sell by out torq'ing and out horse-powering the competition when it came out. You could get more horsepower, but the engine rpm's had to be higher, and the turbo sound wasn't as good as the old 7.3 .

As far as the Cummins outlasting, so far they haven't. There is a much higher percent of powerstrokes on the road than cummins from the same era they were built. I'm not knocking the engine by any means, but it's an engine designed for SALES, not for work like in my uncle's rig. The bodies of the Dodge have always given more of a problem as well. Seems they put eveything they had into the engine, but forgot about the rest of the truck(I'm not speaking of the last couple of years, don't have experience since they changed styling.)
 

bigbull338

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if i was a betting man id say that they will put the cummings motor in ford.i talked to a guy the other day that has an f350 2005 with the 6.0.an he said the motor sucks.an it dont have the power of the old powerstrokes.said his starter went out under warrity.an they replaced it.but if it was out of warrenty it wouldve cost him $1200 for the starter.he said he can get 20mpg if he drives with in reason.
 

Aaron

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DiamondSCattleCo":2dg6lwo5 said:
Aaron":2dg6lwo5 said:
Sorry cfpinz. Another V8. There won't be a Dodge on the street by the time your old Ford finally chokes. If you want a 6-inline Cummins, you'll have to tear a 5.9 out of an earlier Dodge and use it. The 6.7L Cummins haven't been getting great reviews, as with any other new diesel. Emission standards and diesels will never mix. :cowboy:

<chuckle> Dodge RAM trucks will around until the explodes. Even if Dodge themselves go under, the truck will live on. Its one of the most profitable vehicles on the road, period. Someone, somewhere will buy it.

As for the 6.7, they're getting the kinks in the emissions worked out. I know several 6.7 owners, and they're all very happy with the truck/engine combination.

Rod

No offense to Cummins. I like the motor and a Ford/Cummins combo would be orgasmic. Dodge, though, is basically finished. If you want an idea of build quality, the windshield on my Dad's 2006 Hemi broke yesterday. Nothing wrong with it, no stone chip. It just got cold enough to crack right down the center. Dad and I were completely blown away. We both remember how resistant the windows in old vehicles were to breaking. That's a $300 deductible out of Dad's pocket for no reason other than poor materials. Parents own a 2006 Caravan and 2006 Hemi, both of which will be going back to the dealer when the leases are up this year and that is the end of their business with Dodge. We are one of the last few around here still driving a Dodge, whether gas or diesel. Most have switched to Ford.

Locally, we have two Chrysler dealerships serving an area of about 30,000+ people. Both we cease to exist if Chrysler gets dismantled, even though, according to Stats Can, we have one of the highest ratios of trucks per person in Canada. Trucks alone won't maintain the dealerships here. I understand your devotion to Dodge, Rod. But if Dodge is left on it's lonesome to sell vehicles, there are going to be very few dealers left in this country. That scares a lot of people in the forms of parts scarcity and warranty work.

brandonm_13":2dg6lwo5 said:
but the 6.0 wasn't terrible.

According to the local Ford dealer service man, the 6.0L caused more issues and problems for their dealership (more warranty work) than any other motor ever put in a Ford vehicle.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

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brandonm_13":qsf2d9xi said:
As far as the Cummins outlasting, so far they haven't. There is a much higher percent of powerstrokes on the road than cummins

Brandon, you'd best take a long hard look at the genuine numbers on engines. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the 7.3 or 6.0 outlived a Cummins, but it certainly isn't in this world. Check with the trades: Cummins engines with a million miles on them FAR outnumber any Powerstroke with 1 million, and Ford sold 10 times as many. Cummins Dodges are extremely difficult to find at wreckers, with the Cummins itself being EXTREMELY rare, while you can find 7.3's in need of rebuilding all over. Even Navistars own numbers echo a high failure rate than Cummins.

Edit: Have more opportunity to respond to this message now. When the Navistar 7.3 litre engine first arrived on the scene, it was rated as a 175,000 mile engine. Over the years, this rating has been downgraded to 150,000 miles. This is the MTBF rating or Mean Time Between Failure. Initial ratings are indicated by engineers using appropriate techniques to "guess" at how long an engine will last between failures. As ownership experience is added into the formula, the MTBF ratings will go up or down based on REAL WORLD failure numbers. The Cummins 5.9 was initially rated as a 250,000 mile engine. It has since be UPRATED to 325,000 miles MTBF. What this means is that the Navistar 7.3 experienced a considerable number of failures below 175,000 miles while 5.9 Cummins engines experienced very few failures BELOW 250,000 miles.

And Cummins did not "make their mark on the world" with the 5.9L. Cummins was a respected engine builder for DECADES before the 5.9 was even a glimmer in their eye.

Rod
 

DiamondSCattleCo

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Aaron":1fhaxt14 said:
Dodge, though, is basically finished. If you want an idea of build quality, the windshield on my Dad's 2006 Hemi broke yesterday. Nothing wrong with it, no stone chip. It just got cold enough to crack right down the center.

I had a 1993 Mazda MX3 do this and a 1986 Ford F150 do this too. I talked to the local glass guy about it and he tells me that some runs of windshields will come out lower quality than they should be, despite all the quality controls. Actually, he keeps more Chevy windshields around than he does any other breed, even though Dodge's outnumber Chevs in my area.

I do agree that Dodge's build quality is lower than either Chevy or Ford, at least on interior components. Driveline components however, they are the equal to either of the other Big 3. <chuckle> So I don't think I'd count them as being "finished". Besides, big money always wins, and Dodge makes more money on a truck than either Ford or Chevrolet do, so someone would buy them somewhere along the line. Nissan is already sniffing around Dodge, since the 2010 Nissan light truck will be a re-badged Dodge 1500.

Aaron":1fhaxt14 said:
I understand your devotion to Dodge, Rod.

<chuckle> I actually don't have a devotion to anything in particular. I'm currently driving a Chevy as my daily driver. My work truck is a Dodge. And my toy is a Ford. Actually, my next new truck will likely be a Toyota. Especially if they put a Hino in one.

Rod
 

Aaron

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DiamondSCattleCo":2eytyq43 said:
Aaron":2eytyq43 said:
Dodge, though, is basically finished. If you want an idea of build quality, the windshield on my Dad's 2006 Hemi broke yesterday. Nothing wrong with it, no stone chip. It just got cold enough to crack right down the center.

I had a 1993 Mazda MX3 do this and a 1986 Ford F150 do this too. I talked to the local glass guy about it and he tells me that some runs of windshields will come out lower quality than they should be, despite all the quality controls. Actually, he keeps more Chevy windshields around than he does any other breed, even though Dodge's outnumber Chevs in my area.

I do agree that Dodge's build quality is lower than either Chevy or Ford, at least on interior components. Driveline components however, they are the equal to either of the other Big 3. <chuckle> So I don't think I'd count them as being "finished". Besides, big money always wins, and Dodge makes more money on a truck than either Ford or Chevrolet do, so someone would buy them somewhere along the line. Nissan is already sniffing around Dodge, since the 2010 Nissan light truck will be a re-badged Dodge 1500.

I count the name 'Dodge' as finished. If it's sold, the buyer won't likely keep the name. It's not known for quality across the world like the Jeep name. That's what I meant by that. I know Nissan is looking at Dodge. It's the only way they are ever going to make a truck that is half decent and respectable. Honda needs them even more desperately.


Aaron":2eytyq43 said:
I understand your devotion to Dodge, Rod.

Actually, my next new truck will likely be a Toyota.
Rod

So sorry to hear that.
 

Alberta farmer

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I think the 7.3 was a fairly good engine...except for the pricey injectors that usually have to be replaced!
The 5.9 Cummins is a very good engine...the problem was Dodge forgot to build a truck around it! The 6.4 Ford is a piece of junk as is the 6.7 Dodge.
A couple of years ago I used a 3 ton Ford with a straight six deisel for a spraying truck. Very good lugging power and really good fuel economy. The engine was built in Brazil. Would have bought it but the owner didn't want to sell...just rent it out one year while he was out of the country.
Years ago I read an article about some guy in BC who was putting used industrial 4 cylinder deisel Mitsibushi engines in trucks and the people who were buying them were blown away by the power/fuel efficiency.
The rumor is Nissan will probably have a one ton dually deisel on the market within a year or two? It will be interesting to see if they can build a working truck with that built in Japanese quality?
 

DiamondSCattleCo

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Aaron":2nj63g36 said:
So sorry to hear that.[/b]

<chuckle> Don't be so quick to hammer on 'em. The new Toy half tons are pretty capable trucks (if a hair on the butt ugly side). Fit and finish is better than the Big 3, although the interiors look cheap. More importantly, the powertrain is pretty tough. The Hino diesel they put into their 1-ton concept truck was 400 HP mated to a 7 speed. Plus, Toyota stands behind their products like none of the American brands do.

Rod
 

Alberta farmer

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Rod: Have never heard of the Toyota one ton concept truck? Is it a dually 4X4? Is it built stout? Will they be selling it in the future? I sure don't want any of the American trucks if I can get a quality Japanese work truck.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

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The Toy was strictly a concept truck, so its really hard to say if it will ever make it to market. When the fuel/finance crunch hit last year, Toy announced they were shelving the project. Having said that, Toy knows how much money is in the heavy duty market, so I really wouldn't be surprised to see one hit our shores.

I didn't make any auto shows last year when it was being displayed, so I've never gotten a chance to give it an up-close.

Here's a link to a Truck Trend writeup:

http://www.trucktrend.com/future/concep ... index.html

A few highlights:
8.0L Hino In-line 6. Hino's relatively unknown to the "consumer" market, but they are well known in the heavy and mid duty market. Many of you don't realize it, but your tractor may have a Hino.
Meritor axles (25,000 lb)
Base rating of 305 HP, however that Hino is available in a 500 HP version overseas.

Rod
 

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