No manners

[SilverCharm]

I recently purchased a 16.3hh Thoroughbred gelding. He seemed mannerly when I went to see an ride him at his previous owner's barn but after bringing him home, I find he has no respect of my space and often crowds me when I lead him. He also has a little "separation anxiety" and if led away from my other horses, he sometimes decides to stop and try to yank the lead out of my hands and trot back to them. It is obvious his previous owner let him get away with that because he is so big. I have tried to put a chain over his nose but even then he acts like I'm not there. Any suggestions? Should I separate him from the other horses for a bit while I work with his ground manners?

Thanks.

 

[Alan]

First let me say, again, I truly hate my wife's 16.2 hh TB, so if that come through on this post please disregard it.

Sounds like the previous owner let him get away with a bunch and problably let him get away a few times while leading him. So first you have got to do your best not to let him break free from you while leading him, if he does get away once he'll know he can. If he ties well, tie him to a tree or strong post (so he can't break free) for a couple of hours. Make sure you are doing somthing so you can watch him. Let him scream to the other horses all he wants. As far as leading him and he crowds you, I like to use my elbow. I don't look at the horse I just take a shot at them with my elbow while I'm walking them if they get too close, just like another horse would kick them. I realize that you have a 16.3 TB, I'm 6'3" and handle 15.2,15.3 QH. So you may want to carry a riding crop and do the same thing. The key is to smack them or take a shot at them while you are walking and without looking at them. Then act like nothing happened, just keep walking.

Just some things to try.

Alan

 

[bward]

Sounds a lot like my experience with my last purchase. She was a paint mare that was plum quiet when I tried her out at the sellers place, and a totally different horse after I brought her home. I even gave her two weeks of acclimatizing before I did anything with her other than lead her out to a grassy pasture each day and pen her at night.
She tended to walk all over me, invade my space and pretty much ignore me at her whim. When I corrected her it just irritated her and she would offer nips. Total disrespect. Let me clarify that I have had horses all my life except for the last ten years when I had to put my last horse down at the age of 25. Even then during those rideless years we had racehorses that we wintered here when they were not in training.

This mare was a bundle of nerves trying to ride and was spooky and shied at things I could not even imagine. I spent time lounging her and working on ground manners which did seem to help for short periods of time but she was just a time bomb in waiting. During all this cafuffle, I tried to get the owner to take the horse back explaining that we were not suited to each other. I like her and she hates me. ( I never had a horse hate me before so it was a novel experience.)

One day during a ground session I had led her away from the horses out of her comfort zone. This is where she went ballistic on me... I was able to get the rope over her nose for a better grip and she finally had had it with me and reared up over top of me ( missing me coming down) and then spun around and offered me both hind feet faster than I could blink.
That was the day that I realized I could not handle this "well broke" Mare.

Like your situation, this mare was used to having her own way and was very dominant. The previous owner was always feeding her treats, allowing her to graze while being ridden, and who knows what else.

What I assumed was laziness in the mare when I was trying her out was actually boredom of going somewhere in her comfort zone.

I did end up taking a big loss on the horse as I would not sell her as 'ridable' to anyone else, and the previous owner would not take her back... Imagine that.

I wish you luck with your new horse...I wish I could offer some advice but the elbow thing when leading only irritated the heck out of my wonder mare. What she needed was to be thrown and humiliated, and I was not up to that. Not at my age.

keep us updated.

 

[Bez>]

Sounds a lot like my experience with my last purchase. She was a paint mare that was plum quiet when I tried her out at the sellers place, and a totally different horse after I brought her home. I even gave her two weeks of acclimatizing before I did anything with her other than lead her out to a grassy pasture each day and pen her at night.
She tended to walk all over me, invade my space and pretty much ignore me at her whim. When I corrected her it just irritated her and she would offer nips. Total disrespect. Let me clarify that I have had horses all my life except for the last ten years when I had to put my last horse down at the age of 25. Even then during those rideless years we had racehorses that we wintered here when they were not in training.

This mare was a bundle of nerves trying to ride and was spooky and shied at things I could not even imagine. I spent time lounging her and working on ground manners which did seem to help for short periods of time but she was just a time bomb in waiting. During all this cafuffle, I tried to get the owner to take the horse back explaining that we were not suited to each other. I like her and she hates me. ( I never had a horse hate me before so it was a novel experience.)

One day during a ground session I had led her away from the horses out of her comfort zone. This is where she went ballistic on me... I was able to get the rope over her nose for a better grip and she finally had had it with me and reared up over top of me ( missing me coming down) and then spun around and offered me both hind feet faster than I could blink.
That was the day that I realized I could not handle this "well broke" Mare.

Like your situation, this mare was used to having her own way and was very dominant. The previous owner was always feeding her treats, allowing her to graze while being ridden, and who knows what else.

What I assumed was laziness in the mare when I was trying her out was actually boredom of going somewhere in her comfort zone.

I did end up taking a big loss on the horse as I would not sell her as 'ridable' to anyone else, and the previous owner would not take her back... Imagine that.

I wish you luck with your new horse...I wish I could offer some advice but the elbow thing when leading only irritated the heck out of my wonder mare. What she needed was to be thrown and humiliated, and I was not up to that. Not at my age.

keep us updated.

Back feet coming around - with real intent - is impressive isn't it?

Most have never seen that.

About what? Half a nano second and they can fire both barrels.

Last and only thoro / arab cross we had did that to me twice.

I was probably only 20 years old at the time.

Second time he tried I stretched him out with rope and I laid a licking on him with a leather harness strap.

When I was done I did not let him up.

I walked all over that horse while he was laying on the ground. It took almost 20 minutes for him to stop screaming and telling me he was ready to kill me.

I p!ssed on him as well - twice. Once on his head - made sure I got lots on his nose and once on his belly.

Hobbled him front and back and let him up. And tied him high.

Kept him that way for a full day. I ate my lunch and supper within 10 feet of him and never left him all day - and every time he even looked at me funny I would point a hockey stick at him and tell him in no uncertain terms he would get more if he did not straighten up.

It was a pure dominance thing with him.

He lived out his days on the place.

Turned out to be a pretty good horse once he realized who was boss.

It was radical but it worked.

S'pose I would go to jail for that now.

Bez>

 

[clampitt]

They guy with the paint mare sounds like you got a good dose of some one that could use a drug with success and when it wore off you were lucky she didn't connect and selling her was not a bad idea.Life is too short.
The TB gield that Silver bought sounds like he might be a bit barn sour as well as no manners.They go together.Those horses are so big and strong.Lay him down,get those kind on the ground then they are looking up at you and you are above them it is an intimidation thing.You can not controll a horses body with out controlling his mind.And a spoiled horse is DANGERIOUS no matter what all the liberals think.I have tied em down and stomped the p out of them.But in the long run best thing to do is get you another horse.Because they will respect you but will figure out in a short while when some one else gets them that you aint on him.Life is too short and you can get hurt on a good horse as well. But, its not worth spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger hoping it lands on an empty.

 

[Alan]

They guy with the paint mare sounds like you got a good dose of some one that could use a drug with success and when it wore off you were lucky she didn't connect and selling her was not a bad idea.Life is too short.
The TB gield that Silver bought sounds like he might be a bit barn sour as well as no manners.They go together.Those horses are so big and strong.Lay him down,get those kind on the ground then they are looking up at you and you are above them it is an intimidation thing.You can not controll a horses body with out controlling his mind.And a spoiled horse is DANGERIOUS no matter what all the liberals think.I have tied em down and stomped the p out of them.But in the long run best thing to do is get you another horse.Because they will respect you but will figure out in a short while when some one else gets them that you aint on him.Life is too short and you can get hurt on a good horse as well. But, its not worth spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger hoping it lands on an empty.

Good post, laying a horse down is not for even a good horse person. Very few can do it without getting hurt or hurting the horse, in short you got to know what you are doing and what you want to accomplish. Much easier and safer to get another horse or send the horse to a good trainer.

JMO,
Alan

 

[sjr725]

I can appreciate Bez' patience and perserverance -
I broke a little quarter horse filly for my mother in law ( I know - no joke!) anyhow, when she figured she'd done about enough work she'd just sull up and back up and flop over on her side with you! I got this twice in once day and the third time, I was able to just step off as she was going down, threw my jacket over her head and sat on it. I bet I sat there, on her head, for at least 2 hours - long enough to go from needing a jacket in the morning to sweating in the sun - I just though allright, if you want to lay down - we'll just lay here - but I'll control if and when you get to get up - I kept her there 'til she quit trying to get up and then some more until she thought she couldn't stand to lay there one more second. Didn't yell, or whip or say a single word - then let her up and stepped right back on and continued the task I was asking her before her "nap" - she never did it again and was the nicest broke mare - a regular miss manners. But different things will work on different individuals - could have just as easily went the wrong way - don't know if I'd do it again or not?

 

[Horse Guy]

I recently purchased a 16.3hh Thoroughbred gelding. He seemed mannerly when I went to see an ride him at his previous owner's barn but after bringing him home, I find he has no respect of my space and often crowds me when I lead him. He also has a little "separation anxiety" and if led away from my other horses, he sometimes decides to stop and try to yank the lead out of my hands and trot back to them. It is obvious his previous owner let him get away with that because he is so big. I have tried to put a chain over his nose but even then he acts like I'm not there. Any suggestions? Should I separate him from the other horses for a bit while I work with his ground manners?

Thanks.

You know TBs with running bloodlines, well they are a lot of horse. Way more horse than what most recreational riders need or can use. Way more horse than what most beef producers who are looking for a ranch horse and who are not riding horses everyday need or have time to frig with.
You never said how old he was or how much training or even what kind of training the horse has. But really it would be hard for me to access and try to explain what to do over the internet anyway. I know if the energy levels are as high in that horse as what im assuming they are. Well your sure not going to make it a ranch horse overnight.
I Love Hot Horses! But thats me and im sure im a minority.
Anyway i guess what im suggesting is why not just cut your loses?
There must be guys riding for community pastures or grazeing associations in your area. What about grazing Co/ops?
A lot of these guys ride will sell you a horse that is pretty solid.
Here is a link for a horse that IMO is probable just perfect for what most ranchers need. Now im sure its no reining horse or finished bridle horse but most beef producers dont need that kind of a horse anyways. Plus look at the price of this horse. I cant put that many miles on a horse and sell it for a price like that without losing money.
I would look for an experienced horse like this or even one that was older. I would trade the TB with them and just cut my loses. That or try to make arrangements with a trainer to put some miles on your TB. But my experience with TBs tells me that its going to take a long time to probable make that TB the type of horse your probable looking for. There is a lot of difference between Hot Horses and your typical QH.
http://www.northernhorse.com/classified ... sp?ID=4080

 

[SilverCharm]

Horse Guy, he is 13 years old and is trained in the jumper, hunter, and dressage disciplines. I plan to show him as well as trail ride. He can have energy at times but he is not uncontrollable. He listens and is very responsive under saddle. It's when I'm out of the saddle that I am having a problem.

Thank you everyone for the tips, I will try some of them.

 

[clampitt]

You should have told all the story.It sounded like he was not very well trained at all and was kind of a bronc.Those horses that big are sometimes a handful on the ground a lot of people don't care what they do as long as they win thats Ok if you like that.At his age usually what you see is what you get.And all horss usually ride good at home.You migh have to get a switch after him a few times and just let him know you are running things.Or like I see a lot do show the horse then tie them up or put em in the trailer and wait.A horse that is pretty competative themselves can get revved up and not come down for a bit I know barrel and some calf horses are that way you have to stay after them to stay off of you sometimes.But,Be carefull.

 

[flaboy?]

Silvercharm, have you considered a lip chain on him? A little snatch on it can get his attention real quick and he won't pull away from you with it.

Like Alan said a good elbow or pointed stick will soon teach him to stay off of you.

The last one I bought liked to get in my space and I would just punch him in the nose with my fist (not real really hard but hard enough) and walk on with him like I never did it. He is much better now.

I think the key (like Alan said) is to correct them without looking into their eyes.

 

[sjr725]

We work with alot of babies and my husband made me a really handy little item - he cut the handle end off of a golf club and then ground the shaft off so the rubber part covers it up. Its small enough to stick in your back pocket but really handy to use if a horse is pushing or crowding you can just poke them with it - it's a little stiffer then using your thumb and gets them to back right off - if they want to walk off ahead of you when leading, you can hold it in your hand and poke them in the chest to get them to back off - works like a charm - I have 4 or 5 of them scattered all over the place and use them every day. wonderful aid to use for ground work to get a horse to sidepass away from you - not crowd you when your grooming or saddling - like I say you can just stick it in your pocket so it's not like you have to carry it always in your hand - leaves both hands free until you need it. Just use the fat end like you would use your thumb to give them a little jab to move off or away or back up - I love it for one that wants to walk over the top of you.

 

[Horse Guy]

Horse Guy, he is 13 years old and is trained in the jumper, hunter, and dressage disciplines. I plan to show him as well as trail ride. He can have energy at times but he is not uncontrollable. He listens and is very responsive under saddle. It's when I'm out of the saddle that I am having a problem.

Thank you everyone for the tips, I will try some of them.

Then that changes everything.
I wish you would buy this old video. Three legends: Rodney Jenkins, Buck Brannaman & George Morris giveing a clinic. The horses Buck are working with, well its like this video was made for your horse.
http://www.rein-aid.com/masters.html
Anyway for me to try to explain to you what to do with your horse by writing out would take a book.
If you watch that video I promise you it will show you everything you need to know. Plus its not just about ground manners. If that horse is like that on the ground then things cant be as good as they could be in the saddle.
Like I know everybody for the most part on here hates videos/ trainers that make videos, etc which is to bad because if you cant get hands on help from a trainer a video is the next best thing. Way better than trying to talk about something as complex as this over a forum where you only have the written word to go by.
But I strongly recomend this video. Haha for some strange reason my gut tells me you wont watch it but God I hope you do.
Just trust me, what Brannaman is doing there works. Its basically what I do for colt starting. Yes I know you dont have a colt but trust me this video is made for your horse.
PS I know that most of the videos out there are well "entertainment" or very low level to say the least. But this is by far one of the greatest videos I have ever seen and I have an extremely large video collection. For the life of me I dont understand why this video isnt more popular. I just stumbled acrost it in a trade years ago. As far as I know very few people have seen this video.

 

[Horse Guy]

Here is a better link and another description of the vid
http://equusunlimited.com/Shop%20Factor ... _1894.html
DVD - Three Masters, Three Legends Vol.3 (2-disks) $US49.95



NTSC Format 120 min


George Morris, Buck Brannaman and Rodney Jenkins combine their lifetime training experiences in a summit meeting. Volume 3 includes: Hunters over Fences (Jenkins), Starting a Horse: Parts 5 & 6 (Brannaman), and Advanced Fundamentals: Jumpers (Morris).

DVD33532

PS Make sure you get the complete set with all the volumes which should be over 6 hours long.

 

[peg4x4]

A friend of mine wants her horse much,much closer to her than I do..could this be some of the problem? Could you watch this person handle one from the ground?

 

[Horse Guy]

A friend of mine wants her horse much,much closer to her than I do..could this be some of the problem? Could you watch this person handle one from the ground?

Horses are like computers-They might not do what you want them to do but they do what you tell, teach or program them to do.
It doesnt really matter all that much where the horse is if the horse is being respectul. Example you can halter break your horse to be a foot behind you and slightly to the side of you or you can train him to stay two feet behind you. I know I have my own idea where I want that horse to be at all times and I stick with it but if somebody wants their horse to stay in a different position it wouldnt be right or wrong just different. Just make sure the horse always stays in that position that you prefer.
If you spend time at a race track or at an eventing stable you will see grooms and other handlers handling horses who dont really know what they are doing. Combine this with hot blooded-spirited horses and you get horses that will run through or walk right over you.
Its all about respect but its not as simple as just putting fear into the horse or taking the spirit out of the horse. This is the last thing I would want to do to one of my horses.
But just because a horse is hot sure doesnt mean that im going to put up with him acting like a dink on a lead rope.
But you have to remember that these horses that have no respect for people on the ground and who walk all over there handlers. Well basically they have been trained to do that.
If you get a copy of the video I described above you will see them working with different horses. But the one horse that Brannaman is working with is a spoiled "broke" horse. It sure wasnt no easy horse to be around or work with.

 

[Michelle]

Clinton Anderson, Craig Cameron, and Chris Cox all have some GREAT advice for respect issues!!! Definately check into their methods, and if you ever get the chance to go to one of their clinics, take it!!!