Ebenezer
Well-known member
The right bull - yes. Most bulls or the line crossed bulls - no. Crossbred bulls - no.
Next Steps, Ranch Goals and Improving Genetics
- Thread starter CVHFarmsLLC
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Honestly if I was in this situation and didn't want Brafords and wanted baldy cattle I'd sell the Brafords. They always bring a premium. Buy a nice set of Angus heifers and go from there. Too much trouble trying to chase something. Every steps takes a year or two when breeding your own. If I kept them I'd still go with the baldy bull, ours was great.
CVHFarmsLLC
Active member
I hear what you are saying and we have done both in the past. For some reason feeding out steers yields much more predictable and consistent results for us over heifers and consistent results are important for our customers.
Depends on what the "hodge podge" is. A herd of cows with Angus, Hereford, Charolais, Jersey, Longhorn and Brahma in it, then no. A guy that ropes with us has Brangus, Red Brangus, Gert, Braford, a Simbrah, and about every color Beefmaster there is. He uses 2 homo for black and polled SimAngus bulls, and the calves all look like Ultrablacks, except some of the Braford calves look like a bwf Ultrablack. All the other solid black calves, though, you can't tell what breed the momma was.
To this
Is a cow really that good if she can't catch in a 60 day breed? Id say she isn't
CVHFarmsLLC
Active member
Good point. There is a cost from a management perspective i.e. having to work calves twice, less uniformity, higher risk for not breeding back the following season, etc. and then there is the reduced revenue the calf brings because it is 30 days younger. I can see an argument for ripping the bandaid off immediately vs over time.
CVHFarmsLLC
Active member
In our case, it is brangus, braford, and angus plus. Our sale makes pens with like cattle of color, sex, ear, and within 50 lbs. If you can't make a pen of four or more, they get sold as a weaned single. From what I have seen buyers are most aggressive towards the grouped pens of like cattle.
Angus plus is like an Ultrablack? An Angus/Brangus cross?
Ebenezer
Well-known member
You'd have to see the data. Odd that some cows can lag in, say year 2 and make up for it in years 3 and 4. Not a have to - just saying.
CVHFarmsLLC
Active member
Yes. My understanding is they are basically one in the same. I think the Brangus breeders wanted something that sounded a little fancier.
CVHFarmsLLC
Active member
Its a valid point and I have data from the last 4-5 years to support what you are saying. You never know what environmental issues can come up leading up to or the day the cow cycles.
I found this:
AngusPlus versus Ultrablack/Ultrared
Many cattlemen erroneously interchange the AngusPlus and Ultrablack/Ultrared registry programs. Angus Plus was created by a group of Brangus breeders wishing to maximize the amount of Angus influence in their cattle and became a part of the Red Angus Association of America (RAAA) Registry in 2001. Originally, cattle qualifying as Angus Plus were defined as Angus/Brahman derivatives with a minimum of 50 percent Angus (red or black) and a preference for higher percentage Angus breeding.
They placed an emphasis on lowering the Brahman influence below the traditional Brangus levels. With that said, on July 1, 2004, the RAAA changed the definition of an Angus Plus animal to cattle that were Brahman/Angus derivatives that have been derived from purebred lines (Red Angus, Angus, Brahman, Red Brangus, and/ or Brangus) between 65 percent and 96 percent registered red or black Angus and a minimum of four percent registered Brahman.
Unlike the RAAA, leaders at the IBBA have always stressed the importance of Bos Indicus influence in Ultrablack and Ultrared cattle by keeping the Brangus influence at a 12.5% level or higher for registry. This was further confirmed by the IBBA membership with continued conversation about a breeding up from Ultrablack and Ultrared to Brangus program.
Basically. looks like UltraBlack are registered with the !BBA, and are registered Angus and registered Brangus composites. Angus Plus are registered with the RAAA , and can have Red Angus and/or Red Brangus blood. You would probably get a fairly consistent calf crop using registered ULtraBlack bulls. It would take a little ear off your Brangus cattle, a little more off your Br x Herford cows, and be a wash as far as phenoytype with your AngusPLus. Do you plan on retaining the heifers? Or some of them?
StrojanHerefords
Well-known member
What is worth more an open cow or a cow that calves a month late?
CVHFarmsLLC
Active member
We would like to retain heifers off our F1 Brafords to give us more bladies. Purchase a few additional and basically have all brangus baldies by the end of a five year period. We would eventually breed back to herfords and then brangus bulls over time to keep the heterosis (at least thats the plan I have in my head).
So, you are not retaining heifers from the Brangus and Angus Plus, right? If that is the case, I would breed everything to a homo for polled and black pb Simmental. You will get some nice sized black baldy heifers out of your f1s, and the terminal calves from the Brangus and Angus Plus cows would grow very well. I saw some pb black Simms sell yesterday, that had a white blaze or forehead., so you could get a baldy out of a Brangus or Angus Plus cow or two. When you get ready to breed those baldy heifers back, then is when I'd use a Brangus or UltaBlack bull, and you are getting more heterosis than you would throwing a Hereford in the mix.
There is no benefit to Angus+/ UB. You are not getting better genetics than Angus and it will cost you money with ear on ear.
I have had them, also. We started out with Brangus. I was die hard on them because I thought my bulls had to have ear. You can read my early posts on here where I said so. CB and other guys who have Brahman influenced cattle would tell me to ditch the composites but I didn't listen. I was BSing with my long time Brangus breeder and he talked me in to going down the road to look at their Angus+ bulls. He assured me they would make me more money, hold up just as good, and guaranteed me if I wasn't happy he would swap me back out for a Brangus bull down the road. I took him up on it. He was right. We bought several from them.
After seeing the success I tried one pure Angus. I will say we did spend more money on the Angus. He was a better quality bull. I atribute cutting the ear and going to a better quality bull for taking our calves from the avg, or slightly above price, to the upper bell ringer range. We had to get stocking rates and nutrition and all that under control also to maximize the genetics but the genetics came from those bulls.
We exclusively run Angus bulls now with the exception of alternating Hereford and Brahman bulls over the Brahman group.
I have played around and put a Hereford or Brahman over the general herds. There is too much loss on doing that vs producing those big black and bwf calves. Plus it's deviating from the breeding plan and adding less uniformity.
I have had them, also. We started out with Brangus. I was die hard on them because I thought my bulls had to have ear. You can read my early posts on here where I said so. CB and other guys who have Brahman influenced cattle would tell me to ditch the composites but I didn't listen. I was BSing with my long time Brangus breeder and he talked me in to going down the road to look at their Angus+ bulls. He assured me they would make me more money, hold up just as good, and guaranteed me if I wasn't happy he would swap me back out for a Brangus bull down the road. I took him up on it. He was right. We bought several from them.
After seeing the success I tried one pure Angus. I will say we did spend more money on the Angus. He was a better quality bull. I atribute cutting the ear and going to a better quality bull for taking our calves from the avg, or slightly above price, to the upper bell ringer range. We had to get stocking rates and nutrition and all that under control also to maximize the genetics but the genetics came from those bulls.
We exclusively run Angus bulls now with the exception of alternating Hereford and Brahman bulls over the Brahman group.
I have played around and put a Hereford or Brahman over the general herds. There is too much loss on doing that vs producing those big black and bwf calves. Plus it's deviating from the breeding plan and adding less uniformity.
Travlr
Well-known member
You've got some d**n fine animals, and that calf in the second to last pic is a chunk.
What else do I have here that I have actually done... not just googled or imagined.
I believe this is Hereford over BWF cow.
This is a Hereford over an F1 Braford. So 1/4 Brahman, 3/4 Hereford.
I believe this is Hereford over BWF cow.
This is a Hereford over an F1 Braford. So 1/4 Brahman, 3/4 Hereford.
A Hereford and an Angus Bull would probably work real nice on your herd. No matter what happens it will all be good.
The 1/4 ear RWF heifers from your F1s would make the wife happy and make excellent calve going back to an Angus bull. Might even get some baldies out of that.
The 1/4 ear RWF heifers from your F1s would make the wife happy and make excellent calve going back to an Angus bull. Might even get some baldies out of that.
I appreciate that. It's still a work in progress but there are a lot of people on this board that deserve the credit. Its a great resource if you learn who to listen to.
