Next Steps, Ranch Goals and Improving Genetics

Help Support CattleToday:

If you can acquire enough loyal customers to market your entire production from forty pairs it sounds like a worthy business model. IF you are not selling to commercial buyers you can at least stay away from the black hide monopoly. And that's an advantage in genetic availability and heat tolerance.



Reasonable strategies and goals. You'll find out where you need flexibility as you go on.



Breeds don't matter as much as you might think. There are plenty of ways to build a good cow that produces a top calf. Just remember that you're in the meat business and deliver what your customers want and will learn to expect if your supply a consistent product. Brahman crosses do well in heat and they are certainly attractive in that respect. They do tend to take some different procedures and handling compared to straight European breeds. I tend to think they would rather be led by a bucket full of grain rather than driven.



A single bull on 40 cows is asking for trouble. (I've done it, but...) I'd be using two bulls, and buying young bulls well before putting them on cows and if you have a problem with an older bull you have an emergency plan. And if it were me, I'd be looking-at-the-bulls before looking at EPDs. If you don't know what a beef bull should look like, please find something that will instruct you. I'd rather select from bulls that fit my idea of the phenotype that would make the calves I want, and then choose the best EPDs from among that group. I've seen great EPDs on animals that don't have any business calling themselves beef.



Just like in a firefight, it's always good to have a plan. But once you begin the plan gets modified by circumstances. Don't consider these changes a failure. Adaptability is where successful cattlemen thrive.
I forgot to mention, we currently have an angus bull. Next bull will be addition to get a 1/20 ratio. I feel like that is an important component to lean on breed-back performance.
 
Would you recommend not shortening breeding or doing so over a longer period of time? Longer period of time - say 4 or 5 years. You can lose some good cows going too fast - my opinion and experiences only.

Yes, would cull similar age and breed based on WWADG. For example, currently have a brangus baldy that we retained with three others. She consistently loses more body condition, breeds back late, and weans a smaller calf. Good thoughts.

Performance I was referring to growth over carcass.

Did you mean AI instead of TIA? Not trying to be smart, just want to make sure I'm not missing something. TAI is Timed AI. Sync the cows and breed all at one time. All go through the same protocol so you have to get them done in a timely fashion and as the protocol requires. Then you breed all with a short time window - maybe 4 to 6 hours. Might have to schedule a few vacation days to be sure that it gets done or hire someone. All sorts of variations. The goal to try to achieve is the best % conception.
 
If you are wanting black baldy cattle as replacements I'd try a Hybrid black baldy bull. We ran Hereford bulls over Angus/Brangus cows for years to get black baldy calves. The calves were good but some would have too much Hereford in them. We went to buy a couple Hereford bulls from Langford Herefords in Oklahoma one year and ended up buying a Hybrid black baldy bull. I believe he was out of a registered Angus bull and Hereford cow. Ended up being a great bull and his calves were really nice. Last year we sold him due to a foot injury he couldn't get over. Using a bull like that would speed things up for you.

I'm with you on the F1 Brafords. They are nice but can be nutty. I really think a bull like I described would be great on Brangus cattle. You'd retain some ear but get the easy going nature of Herefords.
I had not thought of a baldy bull. Just curious, what was the breed composition in the hybrid black baldy?
 
Would you recommend not shortening breeding or doing so over a longer period of time? Longer period of time - say 4 or 5 years. You can lose some good cows going too fast - my opinion and experiences only.

Yes, would cull similar age and breed based on WWADG. For example, currently have a brangus baldy that we retained with three others. She consistently loses more body condition, breeds back late, and weans a smaller calf. Good thoughts.

Performance I was referring to growth over carcass.

Did you mean AI instead of TIA? Not trying to be smart, just want to make sure I'm not missing something. TAI is Timed AI. Sync the cows and breed all at one time. All go through the same protocol so you have to get them done in a timely fashion and as the protocol requires. Then you breed all with a short time window - maybe 4 to 6 hours. Might have to schedule a few vacation days to be sure that it gets done or hire someone. All sorts of variations. The goal to try to achieve is the best % conception.
Excellent ideas. Thank you for responding and sharing those. We have an angus bull now so I'm thinking he could be used as cleanup after a single round of AI and then no need for a bull purchase this year.
 
TAI is timed AI... you put the cows through the chute, do some shots and cidr's , then pull the cidrs and the cows should cycle within a 24-48 hour period... different approaches... but the thing is, they will all be getting bred within a certain time period that you can control and work around your work schedule.
 
Excellent ideas. Thank you for responding and sharing those. We have an angus bull now so I'm thinking he could be used as cleanup after a single round of AI and then no need for a bull purchase this year.
I've done TAI and had great results with the people selling semen doing the inseminating and me doing the synchronizing. If you use a bull that has a visual difference from your selected semen you'll know how well your AI is working.
 
I had not thought of a baldy bull. Just curious, what was the breed composition in the hybrid black baldy?
I believe he was out of an Angus bull x Hereford cow. If you are wanting baldy cattle I'd give Watson at Langford Herefords a call and talk with him. It'd be a long drive for you but worth looking. They sell around 600 bulls a year. They've got them penned differently according to price range and EPDs. When I weighed the baldy bull he was around 2,100# as a 3 year. The Hereford bull we bought from them was really nice too but he just never grew off like we hoped. He did throw good calves but ended up with a back injury as a 4 yo.

I have no affiliation with the Langfords Just thought they were great to deal with. If we decide to use Hereford bulls again I'll go back for sure.

 
Last edited:
I have not to be honest. Its not common to see SimmAngus or Simbrah down here at replacement sales or with breeders. I'm thinking it might be because of our heat and humidity, but that's just a guess.
With 40 cows, you might consider AI? Maybe not all 40, but try a few with Black Simm and/or black Simbrah? This will give you some heteratosis crossed with your Brangus, angus plus, Brangus baldy, I think you said you had an Angus bull now? You can still use him on the f1 Brafords,( one of the best terminal crosses you can produce) and for cleanup on the AI'ed cows. Angus x F1 Hereford is great terminal cross. If you retain heifers from this, you would be correct to think breeding them back to Angus would dilute hybrid vigor. The Simm or Simbrah AI bulls would be ideal for those too. You mentioned that the Brafords will be out eating grass at 3PM while the black ones are in the ponds or under the trees? So? Maybe the black ones are out eating grass at 3AM!! :) Nothing wrong with taking a noon day siesta, then going to work later in the afternoon when it cools off some. They can eat/breed., etc, from sunset, all night long til late morning the next day! Whatever you chose, get the best registered bulls you can afford, and stay way from commercial bulls. and for sure, don't be fooled into using a cross bred bull, even if the parents were registered cattle of the 2 different breeds.

That's another plus for AI: The money you'd spend for a good registered bull, will buy a lot of semen from GREAT bulls, and even pay someone to AI them for you.

I think you have a good plan and are obviously putting a lot of time into researching. This is just some options I threw out for you to consider.
 
... try a few with Black Simm and/or black Simbrah?

Followed by:

Whatever you chose, get the best registered bulls you can afford, and stay way from commercial bulls. and for sure, don't be fooled into using a cross bred bull, even if the parents were registered cattle of the 2 different breeds.

Sorry Warren... but which is it? All of these (whatever)brah bulls, and these non-black-but-now-black breed bulls are crossbreeds. Just because they have papers from some kind of organization it doesn't mean they aren't crossbreeds.
 
Followed by:



Sorry Warren... but which is it? All of these (whatever)brah bulls, and these non-black-but-now-black breed bulls are crossbreeds. Just because they have papers from some kind of organization it doesn't mean they aren't crossbreeds.
No, they are not. Simbrah is a composite breed. It has Simbrah DNA. A 1/ 2 Simmental 1/2 Brahma is a cross bred. Breeding a Simbrah to one of their cows, the calf will be half Simbrah. Breeding it to a Simm x Brah cross bred, the calf could be 1/2 Simmental or 1/2 Brahma.
 
With 40 cows, you might consider AI? Maybe not all 40, but try a few with Black Simm and/or black Simbrah? This will give you some heteratosis crossed with your Brangus, angus plus, Brangus baldy, I think you said you had an Angus bull now? You can still use him on the f1 Brafords,( one of the best terminal crosses you can produce) and for cleanup on the AI'ed cows. Angus x F1 Hereford is great terminal cross. If you retain heifers from this, you would be correct to think breeding them back to Angus would dilute hybrid vigor. The Simm or Simbrah AI bulls would be ideal for those too. You mentioned that the Brafords will be out eating grass at 3PM while the black ones are in the ponds or under the trees? So? Maybe the black ones are out eating grass at 3AM!! :) Nothing wrong with taking a noon day siesta, then going to work later in the afternoon when it cools off some. They can eat/breed., etc, from sunset, all night long til late morning the next day! Whatever you chose, get the best registered bulls you can afford, and stay way from commercial bulls. and for sure, don't be fooled into using a cross bred bull, even if the parents were registered cattle of the 2 different breeds.

That's another plus for AI: The money you'd spend for a good registered bull, will buy a lot of semen from GREAT bulls, and even pay someone to AI them for you.

I think you have a good plan and are obviously putting a lot of time into researching. This is just some options I threw out for you to consider.
I had considered it, especially for the retained heifers as I planned to breed them a month before turning bulls out with the cows. I'd probably be reluctant to AI some of the 11 year old cows as I feel like there is a higher likelihood of not breeding back and diminishing calf raising performance. Not saying that will happen, just an increased risk they don't breed back and that they underperform raising the calf due to age.
 
Simbrah is a composite breed.

I believe the 10-2-4 Ranch in Commerce, Tx has one of the biggest registered Simbrah herds in Texas. I know several years back they bought out a lady down south that had been breeding them for along time. With all the talk of moderate sized cattle on this board I can't believe someone recommends them. Those sucker's are so big they look like they could step over a 5 wire fence. They are an interesting breed for sure. I like the looks but they get really big. If the OP is in East Texas Commerce isn't far. The 10-2-4 is a great operation.
 
No, they are not. Simbrah is a composite breed. It has Simbrah DNA. A 1/ 2 Simmental 1/2 Brahma is a cross bred. Breeding a Simbrah to one of their cows, the calf will be half Simbrah. Breeding it to a Simm x Brah cross bred, the calf could be 1/2 Simmental or 1/2 Brahma.
Yeah... I'm not buying that. A "breed" that was officially established after maybe 10 or so years of crossbreeding may satisfy your tastes but they are still crossbred. Nice animals, but not really long enough to be a breed.

Still, I've seen some real herd improvers that were crossbred bulls and I think they generally get a bad rap. So I guess, as usual, we are on opposite sides of the fence.
 
Last edited:
Will any bull bring uniformity to a hodge podge group of cattle? Not saying the OP has a hodge podge group just asking a question. Most of the mixed herds I see end up with calves that look the same. A black bull may make them the same color but they still won't be built alike.
 
Will any bull bring uniformity to a hodge podge group of cattle? Not saying the OP has a hodge podge group just asking a question. Most of the mixed herds I see end up with calves that look the same. A black bull may make them the same color but they still won't be built alike.
From my experience with the same kind of cattle, yes. Not perfect but better that a X bull. You will have a higher chance of getting groups of 4.

Put a Hereford X Angus over F1 Braford and see what happens. They won't even all be black.

Simbrah. Ear on ear and who knows what in the background.

Composites will give you same effect as crossbreds with breeding.

I love baldies too but you don't breed baldies to baldies or you can end up with to much white when playing with Herefords. You will also have "a look" with out the hybrid vigor of the 3 way cross.

This is exactly what I posted in another thread when I said breeding with out a plan. His original post said he wants uniformity and gets docked for too much ear. What do we offer... more ear and crossbred bulls. 😆

This is being blown way out of proportion with all these ideas. KISS and focus. All he needs is as good of a black Angus bull as he can afford and move on to on to culling.
 
Yeah... I'm not buying that. A "breed" that was officially established after maybe 10 or so years of crossbreeding may satisfy your tastes but they are still crossbred. Nice animals, but not really long enough to be a breed.

Still, I've seen some real herd improvers that were crossbred bulls and I think they generally get a bad rap. So I guess, as usual, we are on opposite sides of the fence.
There are breeds and there are registries.
 

Latest posts

Top