Next Steps, Ranch Goals and Improving Genetics

[CVHFarmsLLC]

Hey everyone, I'm looking for a few ideas on our five year plan and where we are going with genetics and culling. I rarely post as I can usually find someone who has already asked my question, but this one is a bit more custom to us. It's a long one, so I apologize in advance. While it may not be the most beginner questions, I feel like its an appropriate place as I wish I would have considered some of this earlier on.

We are located in the southern part of east Texas and run about 40 pairs. The last five years, my wife and I have gone from passive involvement on the occasional weekend, to an active role and financial investment in the ranch. We have taken on almost all responsibility in the day-to-day operation, and have also started a farm-to-table freezer beef business. The last five years have been fraught with failures, but with those failures have come unbelievable learning opportunities. I think I could write an encyclopedia on the things I have done wrong. With that being said, I feel like I have come along way and have a relatively good handle on some of the basics like improving breed-back rate, managing body condition, utilizing warm and cool season forage, producing good quality hay, working our cattle, vaccine programs, treating illness, detailed record keeping, etc. Now I'm ready to take steps over the next 5-10 years to focus on improving our herd genetics, uniformity, reputation, and efficiency but I am struggling a bit with where to start and how to go about this. My plan for now is as follows:

• Select and cull heifers based on dam performance and heifer breed-back within two cycles or 45 days. We electronically track progeny, wean weights, temperament, breed-back time, etc.
• Select and cull cows based on breed-back while incrementally reducing breeding period from 90 days to 60 days over two years. I'd also like to cull based on body condition outliers while considering age, but feel like this one might easily correlate to breed-back culling as poor body condition will likely result in no breed-back in the reduced breeding period. This will require some training with the family as they have traditionally kept open cows for a second chance.
• Beginning in year 2 or 3, cull also based on low wean weight average daily gain. I feel like waiting until year 2-3 will give us additional data to establish our target WWADG while giving credence to environmental variations year over year. I think this will also correlate to culling on body condition outliers.
• Introduce improved sire genetics in performance and maternal traits with less focus on carcass quality as most of our cattle are sold through a local precondition sale with no opportunity for seller marketing details. I also want to avoid chasing extreme sire traits.
• Pursue uniformity by retaining heifers and purchasing replacements of similar crossbreed, i.e. Brangus baldy

Now for the questions and plans that I am struggling with.

The current cows are a hodgepodge mix of Brangus, angus plus, Brangus baldy, and F1 Brafords with most of the Brangus and baldies approaching 10 year olds and the F1 brafords 3-5 year olds. I believe the best cattle for our hot, humid, and buggy environment are F1 Brafords, Brangus baldy, Brangus, and angus plus, in that order. The wife has gone full stop on acquiring F1 Brafords as our temperament/disposition issues occur more frequently in them compared to the other breed. The Brangus baldy fits well over the next five years as we have 10 young F1 Brafords that we can cross to angus bulls giving us opportunities for Brangus baldy replacement heifers. However, at some point, it seems that angus on baldy will dilute the heterosis. As the Angus on baldy heifers are retained, does it make sense to adjust herd bulls back to brahma, Brangus, or Hereford to keep hybrid vigor? Am I getting overly concerned on the breed type and heterosis?

We have historically cheaped out on herd bulls. This years calf crop was from a five year old registered angus bull we purchased from a friend. He had top 25% BW, bottom 80% WW, and a mixed bag of maternal EPDs. Looking back through our data, our WWADG seemed impacted with .1 to .2 ADG lower across the herd compared to previous years. Is it reasonable to assume that we may have lost some growth through poor genetic selection? My first step in bull selection is looking at EPDs (followed by laying eyes on it and talking to the breeder). I've read quite a bit in the forum about the risks of chasing extreme traits. What should I be looking for in Angus bulls to improve growth and maternal traits without going extreme and facing the law of unintended consequence?

Anything with my plan seem unreasonable, outlandish, or potentially setting us up for problems down the road? Anything else I should consider?

 

[Warren Allison]

Hey everyone, I'm looking for a few ideas on our five year plan and where we are going with genetics and culling. I rarely post as I can usually find someone who has already asked my question, but this one is a bit more custom to us. It's a long one, so I apologize in advance. While it may not be the most beginner questions, I feel like its an appropriate place as I wish I would have considered some of this earlier on.

We are located in the southern part of east Texas and run about 40 pairs. The last five years, my wife and I have gone from passive involvement on the occasional weekend, to an active role and financial investment in the ranch. We have taken on almost all responsibility in the day-to-day operation, and have also started a farm-to-table freezer beef business. The last five years have been fraught with failures, but with those failures have come unbelievable learning opportunities. I think I could write an encyclopedia on the things I have done wrong. With that being said, I feel like I have come along way and have a relatively good handle on some of the basics like improving breed-back rate, managing body condition, utilizing warm and cool season forage, producing good quality hay, working our cattle, vaccine programs, treating illness, detailed record keeping, etc. Now I'm ready to take steps over the next 5-10 years to focus on improving our herd genetics, uniformity, reputation, and efficiency but I am struggling a bit with where to start and how to go about this. My plan for now is as follows:

• Select and cull heifers based on dam performance and heifer breed-back within two cycles or 45 days. We electronically track progeny, wean weights, temperament, breed-back time, etc.
• Select and cull cows based on breed-back while incrementally reducing breeding period from 90 days to 60 days over two years. I'd also like to cull based on body condition outliers while considering age, but feel like this one might easily correlate to breed-back culling as poor body condition will likely result in no breed-back in the reduced breeding period. This will require some training with the family as they have traditionally kept open cows for a second chance.
• Beginning in year 2 or 3, cull also based on low wean weight average daily gain. I feel like waiting until year 2-3 will give us additional data to establish our target WWADG while giving credence to environmental variations year over year. I think this will also correlate to culling on body condition outliers.
• Introduce improved sire genetics in performance and maternal traits with less focus on carcass quality as most of our cattle are sold through a local precondition sale with no opportunity for seller marketing details. I also want to avoid chasing extreme sire traits.
• Pursue uniformity by retaining heifers and purchasing replacements of similar crossbreed, i.e. Brangus baldy

Now for the questions and plans that I am struggling with.

The current cows are a hodgepodge mix of Brangus, angus plus, Brangus baldy, and F1 Brafords with most of the Brangus and baldies approaching 10 year olds and the F1 brafords 3-5 year olds. I believe the best cattle for our hot, humid, and buggy environment are F1 Brafords, Brangus baldy, Brangus, and angus plus, in that order. The wife has gone full stop on acquiring F1 Brafords as our temperament/disposition issues occur more frequently in them compared to the other breed. The Brangus baldy fits well over the next five years as we have 10 young F1 Brafords that we can cross to angus bulls giving us opportunities for Brangus baldy replacement heifers. However, at some point, it seems that angus on baldy will dilute the heterosis. As the Angus on baldy heifers are retained, does it make sense to adjust herd bulls back to brahma, Brangus, or Hereford to keep hybrid vigor? Am I getting overly concerned on the breed type and heterosis?

We have historically cheaped out on herd bulls. This years calf crop was from a five year old registered angus bull we purchased from a friend. He had top 25% BW, bottom 80% WW, and a mixed bag of maternal EPDs. Looking back through our data, our WWADG seemed impacted with .1 to .2 ADG lower across the herd compared to previous years. Is it reasonable to assume that we may have lost some growth through poor genetic selection? My first step in bull selection is looking at EPDs (followed by laying eyes on it and talking to the breeder). I've read quite a bit in the forum about the risks of chasing extreme traits. What should I be looking for in Angus bulls to improve growth and maternal traits without going extreme and facing the law of unintended consequence?

Anything with my plan seem unreasonable, outlandish, or potentially setting us up for problems down the road? Anything else I should consider?

You ever thought about black Simmental, SimmAngus, or even black Simbrah bulls in lieu of Angus?

 

[CVHFarmsLLC]

You ever thought about black Simmental, SimmAngus, or even black Simbrah bulls in lieu of Angus?

I have not to be honest. Its not common to see SimmAngus or Simbrah down here at replacement sales or with breeders. I'm thinking it might be because of our heat and humidity, but that's just a guess.

 

[bird dog]

I would not worry about the breeding in your cattle to much. Keep the brangus baldies and their offspring. They work great in in our climate. You might want to look at a Limflex bull or a homo black limousin to put some butt into your calves. Simm angus is another good choice but as you have seen, they are not real plentiful in our state.

 

[Heronfish]

A lot of genetic thought and improvement, but have you assessed your situation and determined which route makes you the most money. Find the best way to improve that.

But your on the right track making sure an open is gone. Pretty hard to make money off an open cow unless you're grinding her up

 

[gcreekrch]

I have trouble thinking far enough ahead to have bread thawed in order to make sammiches for lunch….

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Have you considered using AI to make your replacement females and then using a terminal type black bull to clean up. You can choose which bull to use on each cow based on her makeup. IE if a cow has too much ear breed her Hereford, is in middle a beefmaster or santa gertrudis or has no ear breed her to a brahman. What I will say is buy bulls or semen from a person not based off of numbers.

 

[CVHFarmsLLC]

Have you considered using AI to make your replacement females and then using a terminal type black bull to clean up. You can choose which bull to use on each cow based on her makeup. IE if a cow has too much ear breed her Hereford, is in middle a beefmaster or santa gertrudis or has no ear breed her to a brahman. What I will say is buy bulls or semen from a person not based off of numbers.

I agree and have given that some thought. Wife and I both work and I travel for work, sometimes as much as four days at a time. I've got limited knowledge on AI but have always been concerned that go time will occur when I'm not available. I have not ruled it out though for this year.

 

[CVHFarmsLLC]

A lot of genetic thought and improvement, but have you assessed your situation and determined which route makes you the most money. Find the best way to improve that.

But your on the right track making sure an open is gone. Pretty hard to make money off an open cow unless you're grinding her up

To some extent yes. We have been feeding out steers for the last three years. It by far brings the most money and gives us the most price control. However, it also requires substantially more time and resources. We have found that we really enjoy managing cattle and the ranch more than the customer facing side of selling beef. Going forward we plan to continue selling sides of beef to our core customer base but the rest will go to the sale.

Our next best option is through a local precondition, weaned calf sale. Solid blacks and black white face without too much ear and uniform enough to be grouped into pens of 4 or more seem to bring the most dollar.

 

[Ebenezer]

• Select and cull heifers based on dam performance and heifer breed-back within two cycles or 45 days. We electronically track progeny, wean weights, temperament, breed-back time, etc. As long as you do not cull without taking in consideration the dam's age. A good cow with longevity will gradually lose some on weaning weight but can still have the most valuable genetics.
• Select and cull cows based on breed-back while incrementally reducing breeding period from 90 days to 60 days over two years. That is pretty fast but if you have a way to profit from the culls it is fine. As you select for short breeding periods you will see good cows go long on occasion and catch back up. Just know that. I'd also like to cull based on body condition outliers while considering age, but feel like this one might easily correlate to breed-back culling as poor body condition will likely result in no breed-back in the reduced breeding period. This will require some training with the family as they have traditionally kept open cows for a second chance. Likely they milked too heavily from experience.
• Beginning in year 2 or 3, cull also based on low wean weight average daily gain. I feel like waiting until year 2-3 will give us additional data to establish our target WWADG while giving credence to environmental variations year over year. I think this will also correlate to culling on body condition outliers. Compare to age peers and not the whole herd?
• Introduce improved sire genetics in performance performance as differs from carcass? and maternal traits with less focus on carcass quality as most of our cattle are sold through a local precondition sale with no opportunity for seller marketing details. I also want to avoid chasing extreme sire traits. Amen. If you have any idea of the approximate EPDs of any successful cows in the herd, stay close to that range of the total package.
• Pursue uniformity by retaining heifers and purchasing replacements of similar crossbreed, i.e. Brangus baldy By purchasing you can go for more performance/carcass. By retaining you will build a more adapted cow herd.

I've got limited knowledge on AI but have always been concerned that go time will occur when I'm not available. Use TIA and only breed your best cows. It takes chute trips but not a lot of time.

 

[Brute 23]

That's a very good self-observation and good plan.

We run a simular plan min the farm to table.

Basically we run a small group of pure Brahmans to make F1 Brafords. Those go out and get Angus Bulls. We will keep the 1/4 blood Baldies and put them back over Angus Bulls and have even kept the 1/8 heifers (not near as many). The 1/4 cow is one of my favorite from the business side. It's easy to handle, hardy, and make a calf the market wants. I like my F1 Brafords because it is amazing what that breed can do. There are studies and studies on that specific cross. The Brahmans are special in their own way but can be a handful. They are too smart for their own good and you will see that in the F1s if they are not brought up right.

I would not try to breed that hybrid vigor back with any crossbred or composite Bulls. One, it doesnt work good. You just bring back all the things you trued to breed out. Two, there is just no need for it. You can breed your F1 Brafords down twice to Angus bulls with out giving up any thing. That will always ensure the most productive crosses.

Which is the transition to the next question. Don't chase breeds. Keep it simple. A lemflex or sim or any thing else is not going to change any thing. There are just as many crap Sims or what ever else out there as Angus. Shop for a hardy Angus bull that meets your needs. (Plus, there just isn't that much of that stuff around you.)

I would not give up on the F1 Brafords. They are the Queen of the South for a reason. Like bulls, you have to hunt what works for you, and again, another "breed" will not chabge that. Look for F1s that are easy going, make sure you have the facilities to work them, and then know how to handle them.

 

[CVHFarmsLLC]

That's a very good self-observation and good plan.

We are not far from you and run a real simular plan minus the farm to table.

Basically we run a small group of pure Brahmans to make F1 Brafords. Those go out and get Angus Bulls. We will keep the 1/4 blood Baldies and put them back over Angus Bulls and have even kept the 1/8 heifers (not near as many). The 1/4 cow is one of my favorite from the business side. It's easy to handle, hardy, and make a calf the market wants. I like my F1 Brafords because it is amazing what that breed can do. There are studies and studies on that specific cross. The Brahmans are special in their own way but can be a handful. They are too smart for their own good and you will see that in the F1s if they are not brought up right.

I would not try to breed that hybrid vigor back with any crossbred or composite Bulls. One, it doesnt work good. You just bring back all the things you trued to breed out. Two, there is just no need for it. You can breed your F1 Brafords down twice to Angus bulls with out giving up any thing. That will always ensure the most productive crosses.

Which is the transition to the next question. Don't chase breeds. Keep it simple. A lemflex or sim or any thing else is not going to change any thing. There are just as many crap Sims or what ever else out there as Angus. Shop for a hardy Angus bull that meets your needs. (Plus, there just isn't that much of that stuff around you.) The Texas slam is a Redfish, Trout, and Flounder if you are fishing and it's a Brahman, Heredford, and Angus if you are in cattle on the Gulf Coast.

I would not give up on the F1 Brafords. They are the Queen of the South for a reason. Like bulls, you have to hunt what works for you, and again, another "breed" will not chabge that. Look for F1s that are easy going, make sure you have the facilities to work them, and then know how to handle them.

Thank you for the advice on the hybrid bulls. We had our hearts set on angus, mainly because they are plentiful as you point out.

Agreed on the Texas Slam. Sabine Lake is where we try to make that happen.

Unfortunately, as much as I love them, the Queens are done for us. One caused a nasty injury to my father in law so they are now all guilty by association in my wife's eyes. They consistently wean the biggest calves and breed back the quickest. They are out at 3PM in August grazing while the black cattle are in the trees or pond.

 

[Brute 23]

Thank you for the advice on the hybrid bulls. We had our hearts set on angus, mainly because they are plentiful as you point out.

Agreed on the Texas Slam. Sabine Lake is where we try to make that happen.

Unfortunately, as much as I love them, the Queens are done for us. One caused a nasty injury to my father in law so they are now all guilty by association in my wife's eyes. They consistently wean the biggest calves and breed back the quickest. They are out at 3PM in August grazing while the black cattle are in the trees or pond.

What's happened?

 

[CVHFarmsLLC]

What's happened?

Working five bred heifers and he turned his back in a pen with them. Got kicked in the side of the leg. Bad bruise turned into infection, a surgery, and a 3 month recovery. Not the heifers fault honestly, but everybody was present and minds were made up.

 

[Lucky]

If you are wanting black baldy cattle as replacements I'd try a Hybrid black baldy bull. We ran Hereford bulls over Angus/Brangus cows for years to get black baldy calves. The calves were good but some would have too much Hereford in them. We went to buy a couple Hereford bulls from Langford Herefords in Oklahoma one year and ended up buying a Hybrid black baldy bull. I believe he was out of a registered Angus bull and Hereford cow. Ended up being a great bull and his calves were really nice. Last year we sold him due to a foot injury he couldn't get over. Using a bull like that would speed things up for you.

I'm with you on the F1 Brafords. They are nice but can be nutty. I really think a bull like I described would be great on Brangus cattle. You'd retain some ear but get the easy going nature of Herefords.

 

[Lucky]

Working five bred heifers and he turned his back in a pen with them. Got kicked in the side of the leg. Bad bruise turned into infection, a surgery, and a 3 month recovery. Not the heifers fault honestly, but everybody was present and minds were made up.

Any and I mean any brand of calf will kick you. It's what they like to do. It's the ones that charge head on you have to watch for. I do understand though. I remember when Angus had the rep of being bad actors.

 

[Travlr]

Hey everyone, I'm looking for a few ideas on our five year plan and where we are going with genetics and culling. We have taken on almost all responsibility in the day-to-day operation, and have also started a farm-to-table freezer beef business.

If you can acquire enough loyal customers to market your entire production from forty pairs it sounds like a worthy business model. IF you are not selling to commercial buyers you can at least stay away from the black hide monopoly. And that's an advantage in genetic availability and heat tolerance.

• Select and cull heifers based on dam performance and heifer breed-back within two cycles or 45 days. We electronically track progeny, wean weights, temperament, breed-back time, etc.
• Select and cull cows based on breed-back while incrementally reducing breeding period from 90 days to 60 days over two years. I'd also like to cull based on body condition outliers while considering age, but feel like this one might easily correlate to breed-back culling as poor body condition will likely result in no breed-back in the reduced breeding period. This will require some training with the family as they have traditionally kept open cows for a second chance.
• Beginning in year 2 or 3, cull also based on low wean weight average daily gain. I feel like waiting until year 2-3 will give us additional data to establish our target WWADG while giving credence to environmental variations year over year. I think this will also correlate to culling on body condition outliers.
• Introduce improved sire genetics in performance and maternal traits with less focus on carcass quality as most of our cattle are sold through a local precondition sale with no opportunity for seller marketing details. I also want to avoid chasing extreme sire traits.
• Pursue uniformity by retaining heifers and purchasing replacements of similar crossbreed, i.e. Brangus baldy

Reasonable strategies and goals. You'll find out where you need flexibility as you go on.

Now for the questions and plans that I am struggling with.

The current cows are a hodgepodge mix of Brangus, angus plus, Brangus baldy, and F1 Brafords with most of the Brangus and baldies approaching 10 year olds and the F1 brafords 3-5 year olds. I believe the best cattle for our hot, humid, and buggy environment are F1 Brafords, Brangus baldy, Brangus, and angus plus, in that order. The wife has gone full stop on acquiring F1 Brafords as our temperament/disposition issues occur more frequently in them compared to the other breed. The Brangus baldy fits well over the next five years as we have 10 young F1 Brafords that we can cross to angus bulls giving us opportunities for Brangus baldy replacement heifers. However, at some point, it seems that angus on baldy will dilute the heterosis. As the Angus on baldy heifers are retained, does it make sense to adjust herd bulls back to brahma, Brangus, or Hereford to keep hybrid vigor? Am I getting overly concerned on the breed type and heterosis?

Breeds don't matter as much as you might think. There are plenty of ways to build a good cow that produces a top calf. Just remember that you're in the meat business and deliver what your customers want and will learn to expect if you supply a consistent product. Brahman crosses do well in heat and they are certainly attractive in that respect. They do tend to take some different procedures and handling compared to straight European breeds. I tend to think they would rather be led by a bucket full of grain rather than driven.

We have historically cheaped out on herd bulls. This years calf crop was from a five year old registered angus bull we purchased from a friend. He had top 25% BW, bottom 80% WW, and a mixed bag of maternal EPDs. Looking back through our data, our WWADG seemed impacted with .1 to .2 ADG lower across the herd compared to previous years. Is it reasonable to assume that we may have lost some growth through poor genetic selection? My first step in bull selection is looking at EPDs (followed by laying eyes on it and talking to the breeder). I've read quite a bit in the forum about the risks of chasing extreme traits. What should I be looking for in Angus bulls to improve growth and maternal traits without going extreme and facing the law of unintended consequence?

A single bull on 40 cows is asking for trouble. (I've done it, but...) I'd be using two bulls, and buying young bulls well before putting them on cows and if you have a problem with an older bull you have an emergency plan. And if it were me, I'd be looking-at-the-bulls before looking at EPDs. If you don't know what a beef bull should look like, please find something that will instruct you. I'd rather select from bulls that fit my idea of the phenotype that would make the calves I want, and then choose the best EPDs from among that group. I've seen great EPDs on animals that don't have any business calling themselves beef.

Anything with my plan seem unreasonable, outlandish, or potentially setting us up for problems down the road? Anything else I should consider?

Just like in a firefight, it's always good to have a plan. But once you begin the plan gets modified by circumstances. Don't consider these changes a failure. Adaptability is where successful cattlemen thrive.

 

[CVHFarmsLLC]

• Select and cull heifers based on dam performance and heifer breed-back within two cycles or 45 days. We electronically track progeny, wean weights, temperament, breed-back time, etc. As long as you do not cull without taking in consideration the dam's age. A good cow with longevity will gradually lose some on weaning weight but can still have the most valuable genetics.
• Select and cull cows based on breed-back while incrementally reducing breeding period from 90 days to 60 days over two years. That is pretty fast but if you have a way to profit from the culls it is fine. As you select for short breeding periods you will see good cows go long on occasion and catch back up. Just know that. I'd also like to cull based on body condition outliers while considering age, but feel like this one might easily correlate to breed-back culling as poor body condition will likely result in no breed-back in the reduced breeding period. This will require some training with the family as they have traditionally kept open cows for a second chance. Likely they milked too heavily from experience.
• Beginning in year 2 or 3, cull also based on low wean weight average daily gain. I feel like waiting until year 2-3 will give us additional data to establish our target WWADG while giving credence to environmental variations year over year. I think this will also correlate to culling on body condition outliers. Compare to age peers and not the whole herd?
• Introduce improved sire genetics in performance performance as differs from carcass? and maternal traits with less focus on carcass quality as most of our cattle are sold through a local precondition sale with no opportunity for seller marketing details. I also want to avoid chasing extreme sire traits. Amen. If you have any idea of the approximate EPDs of any successful cows in the herd, stay close to that range of the total package.
• Pursue uniformity by retaining heifers and purchasing replacements of similar crossbreed, i.e. Brangus baldy By purchasing you can go for more performance/carcass. By retaining you will build a more adapted cow herd.

I've got limited knowledge on AI but have always been concerned that go time will occur when I'm not available. Use TIA and only breed your best cows. It takes chute trips but not a lot of time.

Agreed on longevity

Would you recommend not shortening breeding or doing so over a longer period of time?

Yes, would cull similar age and breed based on WWADG. For example, currently have a brangus baldy that we retained with three others. She consistently loses more body condition, breeds back late, and weans a smaller calf.

Performance I was referring to growth over carcass.

Did you mean AI instead of TIA? Not trying to be smart, just want to make sure I'm not missing something.

 

[Brute 23]

Working five bred heifers and he turned his back in a pen with them. Got kicked in the side of the leg. Bad bruise turned into infection, a surgery, and a 3 month recovery. Not the heifers fault honestly, but everybody was present and minds were made up.

That was his fault. Sorry to say it but any breed will kick you. He should not turn his back on any breed or stand with in kicking distance.

I use to work for a pure blood Angus place in Waco. The cows would watch you walk beside a chute and try to kick you through the chute. We were working cows one day and an older Mexican man who was very sloppy got in with a group waiting to load in the chute. One kicked him and dropped him in the pen. I had to jump the fence and fend the cows off him to get him up while some guys opened the gate up to dump the cows. It was 100% his fault and preventable for getting in that position.

 

[CVHFarmsLLC]

Any and I mean any brand of calf will kick you. It's what they like to do. It's the ones that charge head on you have to watch for. I do understand though. I remember when Angus had the rep of being bad actors.

I agree. Multiple parties involved and some minds already made up (not mine).