New pictures of 18 month old bull

[BARNSCOOP]

I have tried to take pictures according to Doc's post. I will try to get his EPD information and post it ASAP. He is Reg. Black Angus.

 

[K2011]

He is short bodied........lacking in the rear........I just don't like him.........

 

[Keren]

I'm sorry . . . these pictures make me like him less.

Things I dont like about him:

short-bodied
lacking in muscle
lacking in bone
short, thin tail (which in my experience goes with hard keepers)
lack of depth and capacity
rough shoulders
complete lack of masculinity

And if I start to get nit-pick:

sheath looks to be lower than is normal with this breed
appears to dangle the prepuce - common with polled bulls - may be an issue if he does it often
cant see the feet from the front on but looks like he might toe out in the front feet
short rump (hips to pins)

Things I do like about him:

Good set of testicles
Strong topline
Nice angle hips to pins
Appears to have correct hind legs

I'm sorry . . . there's no nice way to say it but I dont like this bull. I wouldnt buy him and if he were born at my place I would steer him. Then again I have steered the wrong ones on occasion.

 

[BARNSCOOP]

He had just finished urinating when I took this picture. I purchased this bull on May the 24? The previous owner did not steer any of his sires get . He bought his sire in Georgia at some special Angus sell. His sire and the sires full brother were the top two bulls in the sale . They were even close in age as they were flushed as imbros then A.I. My friend paid $4000.00 for his father as a 22 month old at the sell that day. In transport he was somehow kicked in the testicals and he only stayed on his farm for a couple of months . He managed to service half of the herd before returning to the farm he came from (because of the breeding guarantee). Now some how this farm has a place in GA, and KY. He was returned in KY and exchanged for two other bulls. The previous owner kept one of his bulls as a replacement sire. I need to get the name and #'s. I have a call in to the former owner.
I have said before, his calves are terminal. We sell them for slaughter.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

Still don't particularly care for him. IMO he looks like an average Angus cow with nuts.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I have been on the receiving end of criticism before, and I know it is not fun. Please do not take these statements personally. Having said that, there is almost nothing about this bull that I like. These pics make him look worse than the others. A terminal bull IMO should be fairly bristling with muscle and testosterone, with plenty of beef packed on where it counts. Terminal calves are after all going to the feedlot and packer.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I have tried to take pictures according to Doc's post. I will try to get his EPD information and post it ASAP. He is Reg. Black Angus.

BARNSCOOP-

This is an excellent example of what many of us on the Forum have been saying for a long time: YOU CANNOT ADEQUATELY JUDGE AN ANIMAL FROM PICTURES! In the previous set of pictures that you took, I thought that there might be some redeeming factors about the bull that feed and time could enhance, and that he might turn out to be a pretty good bull. I WAS WRONG! I am sorry to be abrupt and harsh in my interpretation of him, but he is not worth the feed to keep him in breeding condition! You have done a great job in taking revealing pictures of him - as is demonstrated by the pictures themselves. He is NOT a bull with characteristics that anyone should utilize in their herd. Of course, it goes without saying that you should NOT keep heifers OR bull calves from this bull! He has NO good phenotype which would translate to profit. He is too narrow and slab sided- not good hindquarters, lacks depth of body - - in other words, where the cuts of meat are located on a beef animal which makes one money - this bull is lackingl

This exercise in bull judging is an opportunity to actually see how mistakes are made if precise, accurate assumptions are not made in the selection of seedstock! It goes to show that just because an animal is from registered stock, purebred and perhaps comes from a reputable breeder, it is no guarantee that his penotype, genotype and personal reproductive characteristics are satisfactory enough to use him as a breeder. For you new breeders who have asked about how to evaluate a bull insofar as his being good enough to use as a sire for your herd - use this thread as a lesson on Sire selection, and what NOT to use for sire selection. There are thousands of pictures (done professionally for Sale catalogs, magazines etc) which you can use as a template for DESIRABLE TRAITS. Compare them with the pictures of this bull and see what the differences are. A picture is worth a THOUSAND words!

I was hopeful that the new pictures of this bull would jusify my opinions and predictions I made for him.. They didn't. The one redeeming principle which we can deduct from this episode is to realize that bull selection is not an exacting science, and every factor of proper seedstock selection should be utilized in order to have a chance to be successful in our Beef Business. For that bit of information and a good lesson in judging - BARNSCOOP has done a yoeman's duty.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Keren]

He had just finished urinating when I took this picture. I purchased this bull on May the 24? The previous owner did not steer any of his sires get . He bought his sire in Georgia at some special Angus sell. His sire and the sires full brother were the top two bulls in the sale . They were even close in age as they were flushed as imbros then A.I. My friend paid $4000.00 for his father as a 22 month old at the sell that day. In transport he was somehow kicked in the testicals and he only stayed on his farm for a couple of months . He managed to service half of the herd before returning to the farm he came from (because of the breeding guarantee). Now some how this farm has a place in GA, and KY. He was returned in KY and exchanged for two other bulls. The previous owner kept one of his bulls as a replacement sire. I need to get the name and #'s. I have a call in to the former owner.
I have said before, his calves are terminal. We sell them for slaughter.

This might be your issue.

 

[BARNSCOOP]

Well, the facts are ....I bought him and I have to use him. I have only six cows two of which had there first calves this spring so A.I. wasn't an option because I was told by someone who does alot of A.I. in my area first and second calves are hard to A.I. I had a bull secured to rent however the gentleman who owned him would not agree to a vet soundness exam. So, I had to buy. Now, I have only had cattle since June of last year . His EPD's looked good comparing the Angus breed average( low BW, Higher YW) and he just looked like an immature , teenage bull to me. I can understand your comments because I went to a once a month local sale on thursday and two bulls where there one the same age , one younger than this one , both had been in a UT testing facility. They were heavier, more manly, and cheapier than mine. I paid $1600.00 for this bull. Because his calves are terminal and I can't afford to purchase another bull I will have to see if his calves produce what they should by yearling weight and if not sell him or eat him. This is a learning process for me .

 

[Keren]

You know what? We have all been in your position. We buy an animal, realise we could do better, but you put the money into him you gotta use him this year. He11, I bought a stud doe for more than she was worth, $425, then the next week I bought a doe twice as good for $250. I shouldnt have bought the first doe but I'm not eating her, I put a lot of money into her.

The real value of this board is that you learned something. We all learned something. You have already been able to asess your bull against the others you saw and realise which is the better bull.

All we can hope to do is improve our operations and our herd. You are well on your way to doing that. And you will have great fun doing it ;-)


Oh and by the way, I applaud (sp?) the way you have handled these threads. It is not easy to hear negative feedback on an animal and you handled it better than most on these boards.

 

[dun]

A.I. wasn't an option because I was told by someone who does alot of A.I. in my area first and second calves are hard to A.I.

You probably need to talk to somone else that "does alot of AI". If this tech is having problems settling heifers/1st/2nd calvers it sounds like there's more of a problem then the cows!

 

[double v]

Bull is very light boned and lacks dept, I would AI some and use him as a cleanup bull for now. Re-attack this when you get a chance, but remember he'll pass on some of these quailities to his off spring. Dry lot him and try to bulk him up, he [b]MIGHT look a little more pleasing to the eye.

 

[mnmtranching]

He will probably pass on his genetics to his off spring. :nod:

 

[HOSS]

Funny thing....for the last few days I have been using a 32" flat screen tv as a puter monitor here in the hotel. I have been setting the view for full screen so I can see while I manipulate the wireless key board from the bed (I know I am lazy). I have just realized that because it is a wide screen it stretches photos and makes things wider than they appear. I kept wondering why everyone kept saying the bull in this thread lacked length. Well when I pulled up another bull that actually had length he looked like he was half weener dog on the screen. I knew that couldn't be right so I got on the lap top and yup......bull has no length and looks worse than I was seeing on the "big screen". I hearby recant my herd improvement comment. :cboy:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

He had just finished urinating when I took this picture. I purchased this bull on May the 24? The previous owner did not steer any of his sires get . He bought his sire in Georgia at some special Angus sell. His sire and the sires full brother were the top two bulls in the sale . They were even close in age as they were flushed as imbros then A.I. My friend paid $4000.00 for his father as a 22 month old at the sell that day. In transport he was somehow kicked in the testicals and he only stayed on his farm for a couple of months . He managed to service half of the herd before returning to the farm he came from (because of the breeding guarantee). Now some how this farm has a place in GA, and KY. He was returned in KY and exchanged for two other bulls. The previous owner kept one of his bulls as a replacement sire. I need to get the name and #'s. I have a call in to the former owner.
I have said before, his calves are terminal. We sell them for slaughter.

This might be your issue.

sound like that fellow needs to run down to the town square, and let em put a nice sharp edge on his knife. theys alway's an oldtimer there that will be glad to accomodate ;-)

 

[Avalon]

It does not matter how much his sire cost or where he came from. I have calves out of $100,000. AI bulls that get the knife every year. Some matings do not work. Sorry but this one looks as if it did not. I made the mistake of using a cleanup bull that cost me $3000.00. His sire was probably a 50.000. bull. He is gone now but I have only retained 4 heifers and grown out 2 bulls from him in two years. It sent my program backwards. And this was with him only getting to 50% of the herd.

 

[PennBranch]

You mention that you AI. Do you use a gomer? He could be a dandy.

 

[EAT BEEF]

Lets just leave this alone. Old Barnscoop has been pretty honest about this and taken it well no need to just keep beating it into the ground.

 

[BARNSCOOP]

I have tried twice to post . Let's see if this works.

 

[BARNSCOOP]

I do not A.I. nor do I sell to packers. I sell an almost organic beef to individuals. I have contacted the seller and he has agreed to an exchange will another bull. So, maybe I will have a second shot at this. If not I will have to keep him . However , his set are terminal so that is one less worry. The seller is as honest man as I know. I believe he has a lack of knowledge. He looks at EPD's, paperwork, and maybe doesn't know how to judge carcis merit. I looked a EPD's also and thought what I was seeing was an immature bull that would grow into his parantage.