New herd bull?

[Syd Sydney]

I am looking for a new herd bull this year and think I am going to get one that hasn't had the feed pushed to it.Something that has just been raised on hay this winter and is on a good mineral program.We live in a very hilly area and the bull will have 10 heifers and 15 ,2nd calvers to get to on 80 acres of pasture.I want him to be able to cover ground and do a lot of walking without getting tired from being over weight.We have had problems in the past with feed pushed bulls developing really bad feet and legs their second year and have had to cull some at a big loss.I am sure you have discussed this before;but I was wondering what your opinions are.And should the price be different for hay fed vrs grain pushed?
Thanks for any feedback.

 

[Frankie]

I am looking for a new herd bull this year and think I am going to get one that hasn't had the feed pushed to it.Something that has just been raised on hay this winter and is on a good mineral program.We live in a very hilly area and the bull will have 10 heifers and 15 ,2nd calvers to get to on 80 acres of pasture.I want him to be able to cover ground and do a lot of walking without getting tired from being over weight.We have had problems in the past with feed pushed bulls developing really bad feet and legs their second year and have had to cull some at a big loss.I am sure you have discussed this before;but I was wondering what your opinions are.And should the price be different for hay fed vrs grain pushed?
Thanks for any feedback.

Why would the price be different? Unless you're willing to pay more for the hay fed bull since that's what you want? Genetics are genetics. If you identify which breed and what sort of EPDs you're looking for, a bull raised on hay with those EPDs should produce as good a calf as a similar one raised with grain.

 

[MikeC]

I am looking for a new herd bull this year and think I am going to get one that hasn't had the feed pushed to it.Something that has just been raised on hay this winter and is on a good mineral program.We live in a very hilly area and the bull will have 10 heifers and 15 ,2nd calvers to get to on 80 acres of pasture.I want him to be able to cover ground and do a lot of walking without getting tired from being over weight.We have had problems in the past with feed pushed bulls developing really bad feet and legs their second year and have had to cull some at a big loss.I am sure you have discussed this before;but I was wondering what your opinions are.And should the price be different for hay fed vrs grain pushed?
Thanks for any feedback.

Why would the price be different? Unless you're willing to pay more for the hay fed bull since that's what you want? Genetics are genetics. If you identify which breed and what sort of EPDs you're looking for, a bull raised on hay with those EPDs should produce as good a calf as a similar one raised with grain.

Frankie. Equate bulls to athletes. When they are in training, i.e. walking and looking for something to eat, they become more athletic and muscular. Not saying starve them, but the moderate feeding of carbs helps.

When they stand around the troughs 24 hours per day, they become the equivalent of Sumo wrestlers.

Take two bulls treated in these two scenarios with equal genetics. Which would you rather have covering your cows?

 

[Syd Sydney]

I was actually wondering about the scrotum circumferance size because the feed pushed bulls will be quite a bit bigger than the hay/grass fed because of the weight difference.Should I be worried about fertility?I know experts and the Vets say that as long as the scrotum is 32 or more then fertility is not effected by size however I have not used a non grain pushed bull before and would like to here from people that have and if they got the results they wanted.Price wise I was thinking that the grain pushed might be more money because of the extra feed they have rececieved.

 

[dun]

I can only speak from direct experience with one bull. The only grain he got was during a 45 day weaning period then was kicked out on escue pasture and was fed hay sparingly and only when the pasture wasn't grazable and when they ran out of grass. At 11 months he had a 39 for scrotal. We turned him in with the girls at 24 months. The day he was turned in he sttled one cow and 2 days later settled 2 more. THose were the only cycling cows that he was turned in with. As time went by and the others started to cycle he covered 6 more within a month or so spell.

dun

 

[Frankie]

Frankie. Equate bulls to athletes. When they are in training, i.e. walking and looking for something to eat, they become more athletic and muscular. Not saying starve them, but the moderate feeding of carbs helps.

When they stand around the troughs 24 hours per day, they become the equivalent of Sumo wrestlers.

Take two bulls treated in these two scenarios with equal genetics. Which would you rather have covering your cows?

I don't think it would make any difference in the calves they produce. I think a bull should be carrying some condition when he's turned out with cows, especially a young bull. But he should be in good enough shape to cover the ground he needs to cover. A Sumo wrestler probably couldn't do that.

 

[skcatlman]

You are a rarity in wanting a lean bull. Most guys don't know what white muscling looks like. They want the thickest, deepest,smoothest bulls and they are usally the over fat bulls. Personally i think there is an in between that i market, conditioned but not rolling in fat. Guys always are willing to pay for fat but seldom want to pay for a lean bull. I know that guys sell bulls for alot more than i but i don't have bulls coming back as non breeders because they are burnt out on grain or too fat too breed. In my area, my reputation is buiding in the area for good bulls that breed hard and stand up and last. I acutally had a PB breeder from another breed tell me to feed harder as my bulls are lasting too long and if i fed harder i could sell more bulls. My response to him was get lost (actually a lot stronger but not allowed on here with that language) alothought i want repeat buyers i don't want to cheat.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

bull same as cows need to be in condition to breed and really should be like atheletes. but cattlemen with good eye's and buying skills would be able to determine that. weather they are in the right condition for the job physically and structurally. where the bull was bred up or fed up.

 

[Brandonm2]

I agree with your reasoning and I don't mean to sound too flippant; but he doesn't really have to be the greatest of athletes to walk around 80 acres.

 

[Syd Sydney]

I didn't say I wanted a lean or skinny bull I just do not want a fat one that has stood in front of the feed troth and eats 10 hours a day I would rather have one that has some longevity to it.And the grass and hay fed bulls that I have seen are not skinny they are muscled and still have a bit of fat on them but I think once they are out there working on the lush pasture they should become really lean and fit without any strain on them as they have been used to walking around all winter.Anyways I am going to try it.If I can find the one I want with EPD's and bloodline.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I agree with your reasoning and I don't mean to sound too flippant; but he doesn't really have to be the

• greatest of athletes to walk around 80 acres

.

lol. well i was'nt taken the 80 acre in consideration i was talk'in in general. if a bull was walkin on 5 uneven rocky acres grazin and breeding he still needs to be in condition

 

[KNERSIE]

I was actually wondering about the scrotum circumferance size because the feed pushed bulls will be quite a bit bigger than the hay/grass fed because of the weight difference.Should I be worried about fertility?I know experts and the Vets say that as long as the scrotum is 32 or more then fertility is not effected by size however

I can only speak from direct experience with one bull. The only grain he got was during a 45 day weaning period then was kicked out on escue pasture and was fed hay sparingly and only when the pasture wasn't grazable and when they ran out of grass. At 11 months he had a 39 for scrotal

I have the same experience as dun as far as scrotal measurements go. For a bull to have an increased SC because of grain either means that he was fed a very high energy ration to the degree that fat deposited in the neck of the scrotum or the grassfed forage developed bull didn't get enough nutrition and his developement was delayed due to lack of growth.

Well nourished forage developed bulls will have SC very similar to to bulls developed on a sensible grain ration.

 

[Syd Sydney]

Forgot to mention that he has to get it done in six to eight weeks max or he gets culled along with the open females.And yes they are only on 80 acres at a time because of the crossfencing.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

• Forgot to mention that he has to get it done in six to eight weeks max or he gets culled along with the open females

.And yes they are only on 80 acres at a time because of the crossfencing.

dont sound like you got this'n thought through. if you have BS exam done on the bull.. and you should.. you gonna blame for the open heifers on him .

 

[KNERSIE]

make sure the bull you are going to use is at least two years old, get a BSE done and watch him service a few cows to be sure he finishes what he starts and you should be OK.

Try and find a bull that was raised on conditions similar to your own, preferably from the same area and the adabtion wll be much easier on the bull.

 

[Syd Sydney]

• Forgot to mention that he has to get it done in six to eight weeks max or he gets culled along with the open females

.And yes they are only on 80 acres at a time because of the crossfencing.

dont sound like you got this'n thought through. if you have BS exam done on the bull.. and you should.. you gonna blame for the open heifers on him .

All heifers are checked before breeding to make sure they are sound and will conceive but sometimes there is no explanation why an animal is still open.No bulls come onto the yard without a thourough exam by our Vet.Our herd is somewhat a closed herd now because of buying problems in the past from reputable breeders and we are trying to maintain the calving groups a close together as possible.Stragglers are a pain in the but and lately too much work even the favorites.

 

[dun]

And the grass and hay fed bulls that I have seen are not skinny they are muscled and still have a bit of fat on them but I think once they are out there working on the lush pasture they should become really lean and fit without any strain on them as they have been used to walking around all winter.

The abilitys you're looking for are a combination of managment/development and genetics

dun

 

[Syd Sydney]

And the grass and hay fed bulls that I have seen are not skinny they are muscled and still have a bit of fat on them but I think once they are out there working on the lush pasture they should become really lean and fit without any strain on them as they have been used to walking around all winter.

The abilitys you're looking for are a combination of managment/development and genetics

dun

Thanks for the input everyone.I think that is so true Dun there are a lot of really good PB producers in Alberta and a few have bulls that aren't pushed just for people like me that want longevity.Now I just have to decide which breed to go with.Thinking maybe black GV.Better hurry up the heifers have to start calving 2nd week of Feb.