New bull???

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A lot of truth in what you write Travlr, but Inbreeding has nothing to do with genetic anomalies. In fact what inbreeding will do is expose any hidden recessive genes. You seem have a lot more faith in genetic testing than I do, testing can only find known faults.

A number of years ago, and for a number of reasons, I started experimenting with using my own bulls. As a result I missed out on curly calf syndrome all the way to developmental duplication, I believe those are the first and the last genetic flaws announced by the AAA in modern times. Before that, trying to produce better calves for the kids to show, I would breed a few cows to bulls in the tank. Most of the time those AI calves were not keepers, this baffled me for years. For many years I had a $1,500 budget when bull shopping, any bull in the tank should be better than the bull I had in the pasture. But the calves proved different. So I did a lot of studying, and pondering. I am now damaged goods, a lunatic, for inbreeding my herd and may never sell a registered bull again.

However, a couple years ago we bred a few cows AI. Once again I was disappointed with the resulting calves, didn't keep a single one. So it appears, at this point anyway, I haven't repressed my calf crop. We are aware, maybe concerned, about getting too inbred, so last month in a larger experiment bred fifteen cows AI. Time will tell.

You talk about moving goalposts. I've witnessed show champions go from belt high, to taller than me, and other extremes. Forget that. Raise cattle that thrive on your farm or ranch. The goal, whether you're raising CAB eligible cattle or not, is still beef on the table. Healthy, nutritious, great tasting beef. And forget that low fat nonsense pushed by your government.
It would be interesting to see where those IA bulls come from. Is it a case that they don't have the genetics to thrive in your geographic region? You take an AI bull from a herd out west where they run 1 cow per 20 acres and an bread to a herd in the East where its 1 cow every 2 acres. The AI calves may not be able to compete against the "native" bull's calves.
 
It would be interesting to see where those IA bulls come from. Is it a case that they don't have the genetics to thrive in your geographic region? You take an AI bull from a herd out west where they run 1 cow per 20 acres and an bread to a herd in the East where its 1 cow every 2 acres. The AI calves may not be able to compete against the "native" bull's calves.
I can't say where the bulls originated from, never paid attention to that, couldn't even tell you the names anymore, mostly chose from whatever the AI rep had in the tank. Only remember one time I special ordered semen. I was picky about buying bulls, usually an AI sired calf himself, and I always wanted to see his mother. Two of the standout bulls I owned, one was a Dateline son, other had the initials B/R in his name. Last bull I bought was a dud, cemented the decision to use my own bulls.

The boy wanted to experiment again this year, we bred 15 cows to three different AI bulls last month. He hand picked the cows, just like I used to do, should give those AI bulls an advantage. Time will tell.
 
Just guessing here... but possibly because it's PART ANGUS?
I figure it's the same issue ppl have said with black Hereford. They tend to "watered down". Neighbor has a pair of Herefords that are really nice, their proven and I've seen his nice calves. Thinking about renting one next spring, which he's offered. I'd run him along with my existing simangus.
 
@Nick Wagner - if you purchased a bull out of your AI rep's tank - it WAS a dud. Here in NY, they only carry CHEAP, settler semen - mostly used by dairy. Absolutely the worse bulls available in all breeds.
The Simmental Assn. REQUIRES all offspring sired by or out of an Angus animal to be DNA tested for genetic defects. Same with anything upgraded using Shorthorn, Maine, Chi (and more I'm sure). We don't have any KNOWN defects in our breed. The ASA will allow you to register a carrier - but all their papers are marked as a carrier, and it is visible on all records on the ASA site.
There are MORE different bloodlines available in Angus and all the breeds.
@Travlr is obsessed with if an animal is BLACK, it's part Angus. The black gene is ONE gene that produces the color. I have had black Simmentals (half bloods) back in 1972. I have a cow family that goes back to 1972. Some of them are black. You would be hard pressed to find an Angus gene in them if you DNA tested them.
Yes, there are LOTS of SimAngus cattle running around. And they are called that. Black purebred Simmentals MAY have a small % of "angus" genetics - depending on how many generations have been PB breeding. I run around 50 momma cows (big herd for NY) - you would be hard pressed to find Angus genetics in them. Roughly half black, half red.
We have genetic diversity in our purebred breed - probably more than most breeds. We are able to use Fullblood bulls any time we want for certain traits we may be looking for. I have used Fleckveih bulls. They are more the "style" I like.
On the subject of CE sires. If people keep breed CE bulls to cows sired by CE bulls, pretty soon she can't pass a billy goat sized calf. I believe in working my heifers. I expect them to spit out an 80-90# calf.
 
@Nick Wagner - if you purchased a bull out of your AI rep's tank - it WAS a dud. Here in NY, they only carry CHEAP, settler semen - mostly used by dairy. Absolutely the worse bulls available in all breeds.
The Simmental Assn. REQUIRES all offspring sired by or out of an Angus animal to be DNA tested for genetic defects. Same with anything upgraded using Shorthorn, Maine, Chi (and more I'm sure). We don't have any KNOWN defects in our breed. The ASA will allow you to register a carrier - but all their papers are marked as a carrier, and it is visible on all records on the ASA site.
There are MORE different bloodlines available in Angus and all the breeds.
@Travlr is obsessed with if an animal is BLACK, it's part Angus. The black gene is ONE gene that produces the color. I have had black Simmentals (half bloods) back in 1972. I have a cow family that goes back to 1972. Some of them are black. You would be hard pressed to find an Angus gene in them if you DNA tested them.
Yes, there are LOTS of SimAngus cattle running around. And they are called that. Black purebred Simmentals MAY have a small % of "angus" genetics - depending on how many generations have been PB breeding. I run around 50 momma cows (big herd for NY) - you would be hard pressed to find Angus genetics in them. Roughly half black, half red.
We have genetic diversity in our purebred breed - probably more than most breeds. We are able to use Fullblood bulls any time we want for certain traits we may be looking for. I have used Fleckveih bulls. They are more the "style" I like.
On the subject of CE sires. If people keep breed CE bulls to cows sired by CE bulls, pretty soon she can't pass a billy goat sized calf. I believe in working my heifers. I expect them to spit out an 80-90# calf.
I agree with your entire post except I would call my obsession more about spreading a reality check to people. I also comment on how genetic diversity is declining in all breeds... some more, some less. If we manage it well it may be okay, but people should be informed because it may end up being very dangerous.
 
The problem is that we would be so ill informed as to believe the taste of beef depends on the color of hair on the live animal.
This is a classic case of "I have seen the enemy and he is us!"
As far as quality of beef is concerned, [The black hide makes the meat taste better is the biggest lie since, "Thou shall not surely die."
[Eat beef, It's what's for dinner!"
Of all of the preposterous things I have seen you post, this takes the cake. I hope for your eternal soul that you called God a liar to try to be funny....for shock value. It wasn't funny. And exactly who said "black hide makes the beef taste better"?!! Evey brand of cereal: Post General Mills, Kellogs etc, say their corn flakes are best. Every beer company says thier beer taste best. Every car manufacturer, etc. In the 80's, Winn DIxie had Sam Elliot saying that Winn Dixies, the beef people, had the best meat. Budweiser's advertising guru's came up with an 8 horse Clydesdale hitch, and made that the number 1 beer in America. It is not.. I prefer PBR first, Miller 2nd. But no sense in Miller employees and stock holders crying and bitching and moaning and calling Budweisier cheats and liars. Or turning their logo red or making their beer taste like Bud. They should have come out with an 8 horse black Percheron hitch first, and paid multi million dollars for cute 30 second superbowl commercials. WHat Miller DIDN'T Do, is turn their logos and labels red like Budweisers, like idiots have tried to change other cattle breeds black. Charolais could have done the same thing AAA did in the early 80's, if they had CEO's with enough sense to hire the ad agencies that AAA did. Too late in this screwed up, snow-flake, pussfied nation today. Could you just imagine the backlash if the Charolais association had a " white is superior " campaign?!!! ROFLMFAO!!!
 
Warren, I notice you have been posting with more than the usual verbosity lately which leads me to wonder if there is a need
to be concerned about you? If you have the time, as it appears you do, I can connect you to some civic minded people in your
area that would have the ability to utilize your particular skills. Best wishes for your continued success! Lee
 
Of all of the preposterous things I have seen you post, this takes the cake. I hope for your eternal soul that you called God a liar to try to be funny....for shock value. It wasn't funny. And exactly who said "black hide makes the beef taste better"?!! Evey brand of cereal: Post General Mills, Kellogs etc, say their corn flakes are best. Every beer company says thier beer taste best. Every car manufacturer, etc. In the 80's, Winn DIxie had Sam Elliot saying that Winn Dixies, the beef people, had the best meat. Budweiser's advertising guru's came up with an 8 horse Clydesdale hitch, and made that the number 1 beer in America. It is not.. I prefer PBR first, Miller 2nd. But no sense in Miller employees and stock holders crying and bitching and moaning and calling Budweisier cheats and liars. Or turning their logo red or making their beer taste like Bud. They should have come out with an 8 horse black Percheron hitch first, and paid multi million dollars for cute 30 second superbowl commercials. WHat Miller DIDN'T Do, is turn their logos and labels red like Budweisers, like idiots have tried to change other cattle breeds black. Charolais could have done the same thing AAA did in the early 80's, if they had CEO's with enough sense to hire the ad agencies that AAA did. Too late in this screwed up, snow-flake, pussfied nation today. Could you just imagine the backlash if the Charolais association had a " white is superior " campaign?!!! ROFLMFAO!!!

Interesting...it worked for hogs...you know, the other white meat with all those white hided hogs they raise in barns now that when you look at the meat it's almost as white as chicken and has the flavor of....welll...I'm not not sure what the flavor is, but it isn't much... Yes, I'm a Berkshire/Duroc guy, but... yeah, nevermind...
 
Interesting...it worked for hogs...you know, the other white meat with all those white hided hogs.... I'm a Berkshire/Duroc guy, but... yeah, never mind...
Berk/Duroc ect taste great, but they can't hold a candle to white hog production.
Economy of scale, volume of production is where the profit is at.
I know that you know as well as everyone else knows 'the other white meat' marketing campaign has nothing to do with the color of hogs.
 
Berk/Duroc ect taste great, but they can't hold a candle to white hog production.
Economy of scale, volume of production is where the profit is at.
I know that you know as well as everyone else knows 'the other white meat' marketing campaign has nothing to do with the color of hogs.

It has nothing to do with the color of their skin, you're correct. However the color of their carcass is lighter than that of the Duroc and Berk...but yes, it's about promotion of the fastest production, even if the difference is about a week for the same results
 
It has nothing to do with the color of their skin, you're correct. However the color of their carcass is lighter than that of the Duroc and Berk...but yes, it's about promotion of the fastest production, even if the difference is about a week for the same results
White hogs average raising 1-2 more pigs per litter and it takes loin eyes of unattainable size to make up for the production a whole hog, even if the white is
of lower quality.
The other white meat campaign is a subliminal advertising slam on beef as a
red meat and white meat supposedly healthier than red meat.
 
Interesting...it worked for hogs...you know, the other white meat with all those white hided hogs they raise in barns now that when you look at the meat it's almost as white as chicken and has the flavor of....welll...I'm not not sure what the flavor is, but it isn't much... Yes, I'm a Berkshire/Duroc guy, but... yeah, nevermind...
They are composites, not breeds.
 
@Nick Wagner - if you purchased a bull out of your AI rep's tank - it WAS a dud. Here in NY, they only carry CHEAP, settler semen - mostly used by dairy. Absolutely the worse bulls available in all breeds.
The Simmental Assn. REQUIRES all offspring sired by or out of an Angus animal to be DNA tested for genetic defects. Same with anything upgraded using Shorthorn, Maine, Chi (and more I'm sure). We don't have any KNOWN defects in our breed. The ASA will allow you to register a carrier - but all their papers are marked as a carrier, and it is visible on all records on the ASA site.
There are MORE different bloodlines available in Angus and all the breeds.
@Travlr is obsessed with if an animal is BLACK, it's part Angus. The black gene is ONE gene that produces the color. I have had black Simmentals (half bloods) back in 1972. I have a cow family that goes back to 1972. Some of them are black. You would be hard pressed to find an Angus gene in them if you DNA tested them.
Yes, there are LOTS of SimAngus cattle running around. And they are called that. Black purebred Simmentals MAY have a small % of "angus" genetics - depending on how many generations have been PB breeding. I run around 50 momma cows (big herd for NY) - you would be hard pressed to find Angus genetics in them. Roughly half black, half red.
We have genetic diversity in our purebred breed - probably more than most breeds. We are able to use Fullblood bulls any time we want for certain traits we may be looking for. I have used Fleckveih bulls. They are more the "style" I like.
On the subject of CE sires. If people keep breed CE bulls to cows sired by CE bulls, pretty soon she can't pass a billy goat sized calf. I believe in working my heifers. I expect them to spit out an 80-90# calf.
DNA testing is not perfect, it can only find known faults. I saw a fawn calf back around 1980, I stood there thinking I'd never heard of a buck serving a cow but here it is, calf was either born dead or died shortly after birth. Then nearly forty years later, the AAA announces they have discovered fawn calf syndrome, caused by a recessive gene, and they have a test for it. In the interim, a DNA test would have come back clean. There is a fear of inbreeding, I believe it is a result of the dwarfism the industry went through 70 years ago and the mistaken belief inbreeding causes dwarves.

If you think about it, why are whitetail deer all uniformly alike? For that matter, it seems all herd species are uniform in the wild. It wasn't outcrossing caused that.

Today, the AAA will certify a bull clean of defects if he is bred back to a number of his own daughters and all resulting calves are normal. I think the magic number is 32 or 33, might be 36.

You have a valid point on CE, or for that matter, any single trait selection. I do have a story though. Grandpa one time bred a few cows to a bull named Wild Turkey, I found out the next spring when he had some whopper calves. I could have throttled him, bull was a plus 7 on birth weight, what were you thinking? Good thing he had grandsons around to help.
 
You have a valid point on CE, or for that matter, any single trait selection. I do have a story though. Grandpa one time bred a few cows to a bull named Wild Turkey, I found out the next spring when he had some whopper calves. I could have throttled him, bull was a plus 7 on birth weight, what were you thinking? Good thing he had grandsons around to help.
Were any of those calves retained as replacements? How did they do for CE?
 
It's inbreeding when they produce a dud/defect.
It's linebreeding when it works out great. LOL
@Travlr I actually have a bull we purchased semen privately. He has a +0 CE and a +8 BW. I only use him on cows, but he gives me absolutely the best females. I castrate all his male offspring even if they are 80-90#. With those EPD numbers, if I sold a bull calf and someone had calving problems, my reputation would be mud.
I have calves from him ranging from 90 - 120# (and you have to realize that 120 is high end but not unusual for my herd and our cold weather). Daughters with actual 90-110# BW have had absolutely no problem calving. Been breeding to this bull for maybe 6 years, so have active daughters in herd. As yet, never assisted one of his calves or any of his daughters.
Edit - @Travlr the 2 red show heifers I had pics of in "show me your herd", you commented that you would have thought they were RA or Limo. They are both by this bull I'm talking about.
 
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Warren, I notice you have been posting with more than the usual verbosity lately which leads me to wonder if there is a need
to be concerned about you? If you have the time, as it appears you do, I can connect you to some civic minded people in your
area that would have the ability to utilize your particular skills. Best wishes for your continued success! Lee
Actually, there is a reason, but no need for concern. 1st week of May, right after we sold the Kudzu Correiente herd, I spent 5 days in the hospital. I had gone to my doctor because I had a hard time breathing, from what I thought was a respiratory infection from a prolonged bout of allergies. Doctor couldn't hear my lungs, and because I had worn shorts, noticed my feet and lower legs were swollen. He sent me ti the ER to get a CAT scan. Got the scan and they admitted me with congestive heart failure. They also discovered I was missing about 2/3rd of my blood. Blood level was 4.8 and an adult make should be about 15. If you get hurt and are bleeding bad, they do transfusions when it drops to 7. So for a week they mainlined steroids, potassium, B12 and Lasix in me, and 4 blood transfusions. Theydid MRIs, endoscopy, colonoscopy, and heart caths to find out where the bleed was, because I was not passing, coughing up, or throwing up any blood. In the process, they discovered I had had some heart attacks in the past 5 years since I got a stint in 2017. I escaped from that hospital on a FRiday when they told me my blood level was 7.8. Went to an oncologist that next Tuesday and it was already at 10.3 A week later it was over 13, so I dont have a bleed. July 19th I had 6 bypasses, and have about 2 weeks of recovery left before they release me to drive, pick up things etc ( though I have done all of those things since I got out of the hospital). Since I got out in May, I have sold my big truck and trailer, 2 horses (just kept 2) and finished up the ones I had in training and sent them home. I won't take any more in to train. When we sold the Corriente Kudzu herd, we jsut kept 4 pb Corr heifers that were by the Corr cleanup bull the year before, my 4 Plummer cows I had got on a horse trade, And, I have bought a half brah/ half Chianina and a half Brah/ half Chiangus heifer when I was getting up bulls for the 150 Braford herd I had been putting together for a client..which we sold in May. So we just have those 10 cows, our 2 Corr bulls and about 20 roping steers left on that 200 acres of Kudzu. Monday I sold my motorcycle, too. Doc says I have to reduce stress more than anything for my heart. Saturday at the meeting, I am resigning my position with the Republican party. This November election in GA is going to be stressfull as hell!! I still have my insurance brokerage firm, and I am still producing a few concerts and festivals, and a couple of bike rallies. So yes, I need something to do... whacha got in mind? Oh yeah, and I had to quit smoking in July, so I am one ill-tempered, ornery SOB right now!!! :)
 
Actually, there is a reason, but no need for concern. 1st week of May, right after we sold the Kudzu Correiente herd, I spent 5 days in the hospital. I had gone to my doctor because I had a hard time breathing, from what I thought was a respiratory infection from a prolonged bout of allergies. Doctor couldn't hear my lungs, and because I had worn shorts, noticed my feet and lower legs were swollen. He sent me ti the ER to get a CAT scan. Got the scan and they admitted me with congestive heart failure. They also discovered I was missing about 2/3rd of my blood. Blood level was 4.8 and an adult make should be about 15. If you get hurt and are bleeding bad, they do transfusions when it drops to 7. So for a week they mainlined steroids, potassium, B12 and Lasix in me, and 4 blood transfusions. Theydid MRIs, endoscopy, colonoscopy, and heart caths to find out where the bleed was, because I was not passing, coughing up, or throwing up any blood. In the process, they discovered I had had some heart attacks in the past 5 years since I got a stint in 2017. I escaped from that hospital on a FRiday when they told me my blood level was 7.8. Went to an oncologist that next Tuesday and it was already at 10.3 A week later it was over 13, so I dont have a bleed. July 19th I had 6 bypasses, and have about 2 weeks of recovery left before they release me to drive, pick up things etc ( though I have done all of those things since I got out of the hospital). Since I got out in May, I have sold my big truck and trailer, 2 horses (just kept 2) and finished up the ones I had in training and sent them home. I won't take any more in to train. When we sold the Corriente Kudzu herd, we jsut kept 4 pb Corr heifers that were by the Corr cleanup bull the year before, my 4 Plummer cows I had got on a horse trade, And, I have bought a half brah/ half Chianina and a half Brah/ half Chiangus heifer when I was getting up bulls for the 150 Braford herd I had been putting together for a client..which we sold in May. So we just have those 10 cows, our 2 Corr bulls and about 20 roping steers left on that 200 acres of Kudzu. Monday I sold my motorcycle, too. Doc says I have to reduce stress more than anything for my heart. Saturday at the meeting, I am resigning my position with the Republican party. This November election in GA is going to be stressfull as hell!! I still have my insurance brokerage firm, and I am still producing a few concerts and festivals, and a couple of bike rallies. So yes, I need something to do... whacha got in mind? Oh yeah, and I had to quit smoking in July, so I am one ill-tempered, ornery SOB right now!!! :)
Holy carp dude!
Take it easy for a while!
 
Of all of the preposterous things I have seen you post, this takes the cake. I hope for your eternal soul that you called God a liar to try to be funny....for shock value. It wasn't funny. And exactly who said "black hide makes the beef taste better"?!! Evey brand of cereal: Post General Mills, Kellogs etc, say their corn flakes are best. Every beer company says thier beer taste best. Every car manufacturer, etc. In the 80's, Winn DIxie had Sam Elliot saying that Winn Dixies, the beef people, had the best meat. Budweiser's advertising guru's came up with an 8 horse Clydesdale hitch, and made that the number 1 beer in America. It is not.. I prefer PBR first, Miller 2nd. But no sense in Miller employees and stock holders crying and bitching and moaning and calling Budweisier cheats and liars. Or turning their logo red or making their beer taste like Bud. They should have come out with an 8 horse black Percheron hitch first, and paid multi million dollars for cute 30 second superbowl commercials. WHat Miller DIDN'T Do, is turn their logos and labels red like Budweisers, like idiots have tried to change other cattle breeds black. Charolais could have done the same thing AAA did in the early 80's, if they had CEO's with enough sense to hire the ad agencies that AAA did. Too late in this screwed up, snow-flake, pussfied nation today. Could you just imagine the backlash if the Charolais association had a " white is superior " campaign?!!! ROFLMFAO!!!
Warren, I'm lost...I read Lee's and yours (statements).... please sum up what you're saying, simplify and condense. It sounds really good I just don't understand it....in content of: being blindfolded all beef tastes the same.
I'm thinking you're saying: "Companies have products they covet...Cattle producers have cattle they covet"
Warren, just read your second statement, you're lucky to be alive...be happy and blessed to be alive. I get it you're venting as relaxation on the forum.
 
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