New Breed Registry?

[cbcr]

I would like to clear up what are probably a few misconceptions.

If a breeders belongs to more than one Registry or Association with more than one breed and would like to have genetic evaluations on his animals so that he can be able to ACCURATLY compare them to each other, he can join our Registry for the $25 per year. If his animals are already registered with another registry that is great, we will accept those registration into our database at no charge. The only thing that that producer will have to pay is the herd assement fees based on the number of animals he has in the database.

If a breeder has animals that for 2 or 3 generations that he has let the registrations lapse, he can register the animals that are still in his herd. To register them with us is so much more affordable than what it would cost otherwise.

In then end, with the EPD's (ABC - Across Breed Comparisons) being calculated by us it offers producers a true across breed evaluation that YOU as breeders can better understand and use in YOUR breeding program, but it will help you in marketing animals to the commercial producer as well.

So, we dont care if someone comes to us with Reg. Simmental, Reg. Gelbvieh, Reg. Hereford, or is breeding Balancers (Gelbvieh/Angus), they are more than welcome to join us to use our services. When they join we will do EVERYTHING on our part to help them and promote them. As a member with us they can list cattle for sale, bulls for sale, private treaty of list an upcoming Auction they are having All for $25 per year. How much does it cost you to advertise in the local paper with a classified ad?

If you question what we are doing, go back and look again on this post about the differences in EPD of Mytty In Focus and how he comes out if we try using the BIF adjustments on his EPD's with four different breed association registries. (these BIF adjustments are all that is available for use, there is nothing else)

Please don't try and read more into it than what it is or make assumptions. Aren't we ALL in the beef business together? We are here to offer a value-added service to those who wish to use it, that is all, if we aren't for you, don't critisize those that do!!!

Thank You

 

[Calman]

3 full pages of advertising. :bs: :bs:

Cal

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I apologize to those waiting for this thread to die, I couldn't help but to post this last reply. :hide:

Commercialfarmer,

I am not going to get in a be nice contest with you or anyone else. I have over 37 years involved in genetics, as a breeder, AI Technician and Embryo Transplant, with both dairy and beef cattle, so no means am I a rookie a rookie.

Dear sir,
The last time someone used the phrase, "I am not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you", with me was many years ago. Funny, it was used by someone trying to skirt the law. And it was their reply when I offered to contact the authorities, if they could not right their wrong on their own.

I do respect experience, but I am afraid that having 37 yrs of experience does not change facts.

The information on our website are FACTS, all backed by the science and technology.

Haven't been there. I am responding to the notion you keep posting about how composite breeding over and over will give such great consistency and heterosis.

Doesn't this individual have more than one breed of cows? Angus, Hereford and Black Baldie, right?

How would you breed them?

These questions are not answers and only serve to distract from the issue
I raised.

However, using your line of thinking- wouldn't the answer be breed all of his cattle to obtain a black baldie F1 and then breeding black baldies to black baldies correct?

Lets look at that Black (B) Polled angus (P) vs Red (r) Horned (h) herford since it is easy to see these two traits. But it can be traded for height, age of maturity, growth, efficiency, etc… If using breeds that are complimentary to maximize heterosis- then they should be some differences.

So now we have our F1's (Br) (Ph) so all calves are black baldies and polled. This will be the most consistent group. And hybrid vigor can be maximized.

Br Ph x Br Ph is the composite cross.

Offspring =
BP Bh rP rh
BP BPBP BhBP rPBP rhBP
Bh BPBh BhBh rPBh rhBh
rP BPrP BhrP rPrP rhrP
rh BPrh Bhrh rPrh rhrh


Black Homozygous Polled Homozygous = 1/16
Black Homozygous Polled heterpzygous = 1/8
Black heterozygous Polled heterozygous = 1/4
Black heterozygous Polled Homozygous = 1/8
Black Homozygous Horned Homozygous = 1/16
Black heterozygous Horned Homozygous= 1/8
Red Homozygous Polled Homozygous=1/16
Red Homozygous Polled heterozygous= 1/8
Red Homozygous Horned Homozygous= 1/16


Now we have black horned and polled cattle, and red horned and polled cattle. Plus there are now 9 different potential outcomes as far as genetic make up from the matting of 2 identical F1 composites using only 2 basic traits.


Yes, we say and continue to say that Composites DO have a place in the beef industry. But here is the thing, everyone seems to be missing the point and one of the primary purposes of the Composite Beef Cattle Registry.

Look back at a previous post about the bull Mytty In Focus and his EPD's. Many commercial producers that we have visited with use what? MOSTLY Angus bulls!!! Why? The same comment repeated over and over is we DO NOT understand the EPD's from these other breeds or how to compare them with each other.

Not sure your understanding my point of disagreement. I am not arguing against your project, whatever it is. I pointed out that consistency will not be maximized while maintaining heterosis in composite to composite breeding. I don't like the fact you keep using it as a selling point- that is wrong.

What is WRONG with me saying that this breeder should use a single breed bull on his cows? Why then not continue to compliment those resulting offspring with a COMPOSITE bull? He will have more consistency and uniformity and retained hybrid vigor?

See answer above about uniformity. Someone may chose use a composite and I don't come close to arguing what someone else might need. But lets not mislead them on what is expected.

How many seedstock producers belong to more than one Association?

Lost me here. How does this apply to our conversation?

Are you in a roundabout way saying they are wrong too for belonging to more that one Association?

Again I'm lost?

http://animalscience.tamu.edu/images/pd ... csE189.pdf

This is not a study and no raw data, method, or interpretation of results is provided to critique- But quoting it anyway, "If two F1s of the same cross are mated, the progeny, called F2, should have about half the heterosis of the F1. However, if F2s and subsequent generations of this cross are intermated, their progeny average no additional loss of heterosis except for any inbreeding that might develop over time."

Well, so right off the bat you lose ½ the heterosis of an F1 cross. And I will dare to say that if you are making a consistent group in as many attributes as possible, then the gene pool will likely end up even smaller. As I assume you will not be breeding willy-nilly and will be culling outliers.

In my example above with the black baldies, if you breed to maintain heterosis at a "constant" level- you will see red calves and horned calves each crop. Now apply that to growth, efficiency, etc.. and you will see variation. Diversity that can occur so quickly in subsequent generations is mother natures hedge and allows for sustainability of species. There are cattlemen that have done a great job at reducing this variation over generations of animals, it is called line breeding. Again, heterosis plummets, but you maximize consistency.

If you are selling bulls, and if you have a Simmental/Angus bull you are selling that is an outstanding animal, and you have a neighbor selling Registered Angus bulls, If you lose sales to the Angus breeder because potential customers are in confusion over the EPD's, how would you feel? Is losing sales putting money in your pocket? What if you had ACCURATE ACROSS BREED EPD's that would show your potential customer that the bull you are selling will work better for him?

The old saying goes "some people can't see the forest for the trees."

There is also a phrase that goes, "don't pi$$ down my leg and tell me its raining."

I was not trying nor did I say anything or promote on this post about the Composite Beef Cattle Registry. YOU DID. We were offering a suggestion to the poster.

I guess I associated all the new knowledge and promotion of composites can do it all with another thread. Apparently I was way off base and I apologize. I assume we- is not you and a mouse in your pocket.

 

[novatech]

3 full pages of advertising. :bs: :bs:

Cal

May be.
Others have done a lot worse.
Besides that it has been a good debate. If you care to do your own research it even becomes educational.
It seems odd to me that some people call CAB good marketing but when others do something similar it's deceitful. No, I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

 

[novatech]

It is my understanding that some breeds retain heterosis more than others. Is there any research on this?

 

[3waycross]

3 full pages of advertising. :bs: :bs:

Cal

May be.
Others have done a lot worse.
Besides that it has been a good debate. If you care to do your own research it even becomes educational.
It seems odd to me that some people call CAB good marketing but when others do something similar it's deceitful. No, I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure CAB pays for their ads.

 

[cbcr]

It is my understanding that some breeds retain heterosis more than others. Is there any research on this?

I believe that different breed crosses could exhibit different degrees of heterosis (specific combining ability), but so far we account on for general combining ability (same degree for all F1 crosses, less for F2, etc). However, we will be investigating this question directly. I expect we will have different degrees across different groupings of breeds (e.g. British X Exotic versus British X British versus Exotic X Exotic).

I will do some more research and see if any other group or research has been done.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

It is my understanding that some breeds retain heterosis more than others. Is there any research on this?

I believe that different breed crosses could exhibit different degrees of heterosis (specific combining ability), but so far we account on for general combining ability (same degree for all F1 crosses, less for F2, etc). However, we will be investigating this question directly. I expect we will have different degrees across different groupings of breeds (e.g. British X Exotic versus British X British versus Exotic X Exotic).

I will do some more research and see if any other group or research has been done.

retain or exhibit?

 

[cbcr]

Breed Association EPD's and Multi-Breed EPD's

As we have said in previous posts, with our genetic evaluation, an Angus can be compared to a Hereford, and likewise these two animals can be compared equally with any other breed such as Simmental, Brangus, Shorthorn, or even a Composite animal with more than one breed such as an Angus/Hereford, Angus/Shorthorn/Simmental/Gelbvieh, and the list and combinations can go on and on.

The system that we use is truly multi-breed in all aspects (meaning Angus, Shorthorn, Charolais, Red Angus, Brangus, Gelbvieh, Simmental, Maine Anjou, Composites, etc.) , which makes it globally unique. Our model has extensive central test data, which many breeds do not include in their evaluations.

The most recent genetic evaluation that ran last week included 2.5 million animals. The animals in the database are a mixture of purebred (different breeds), and Composite cattle of various breed compositions.

There are other multi-breed models out there (e.g. run by the American Simmental Association as developed at Cornell University), but they are applied to data bases from a single Breed. These data bases will have crossbred cattle if used by that breed, but are not really multi-breed because they are mostly limited to a single breed. AGI and a small handful of others (using the model as developed at Cornell University), and BreedPlan offer evaluation services to breed associations. We are not aware of any joint analysis of data from more than 1 (or a very small number of) breeds at a time.

Seedstock producers have been asking for true multi-breed evaluations, which so far has not happened.

The biggest obstacle in the way for a true multi-breed evaluation to happen is for ALL Associations and Registries to share data. But because of politics within Associations and Registries this will be an almost impossible task.

Calls and conversations with individuals with different breeds are applauding our efforts and what we are doing.

 

[novatech]

Intresting article on retained heterosis
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publica ... A-3057.pdf

Reading this thread seems to support this;

CONCLUSIONS
A phenomenon as old and as recognized as heterosis still seems to spark debate and
unfortunately confusion. Just open up the breed association journal of your choice and
odds are you will find an article discussing the value of crossbreds versus straightbreds
(in a few isolated cases you may find the reverse). A quick search of the scientific
literature will provide numerous studies quantifying heterosis for specific traits under
specific crosses. Traditional crossbreeding systems have been shown to maximize
heterosis but can be very cumbersome in practice. Although using composite seedstock
may not reach the same levels of retained heterosis, they may very well prove to be the
compromise between attaining acceptable levels of heterosis and ease of implementation.
Care must be taken in the formation of these composites and adequate selection must take
place on both sides of the pedigree (selecting both paternal and maternal lines for
composite formation). Crossbreeding is yet another tool in the tool box of genetic
improvement and like anything else can be very profitable if understood and used
correctly.

From; http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewc ... eefcowsymp