Nelson Mandela

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Ouachita":12qsy1nv said:
inyati13":12qsy1nv said:
Like him or not who cares, that is a man's privilege, but Mandela achieved something good or bad each man harbors a prejudice which will color that determination
I think that is what hook was saying too...."interesting the different perspectives"...
Be careful with shoe shine reference inyati, some one will think you are racist ;-)

Ouachita, I have edited the quote you used above. Wrote that from the farm on my cell, cold fingers makes for poor sentence structure. :D :D :D

I agree, I think that is what Hook was saying too. Every aspect of our life is colored by the genetics we get from our forefathers and the experiences that are thrust upon us by our environment.

I did not mean the shoe shine comment to be racist. I realize the implications. I suppose racism exists in everyone, it is just a matter of extent.
 
inyati13":3oduonfr said:
robert":3oduonfr said:
TexasBred":3oduonfr said:
Sounds almost like Jesse Jackson. A rel chameleon.

Not even close!
robert, Jessse Jackson is so far under Mandela, he couldn't shine Mandela's shoes. Like Mandela or not who cares, that is a man's privilege. And whether Mandela's achievements are judged as good or bad is dependent on the prejudices of he who judges. But at least, Mandela has achievements and accomplishments to judge, all Jesse Jackson ever did is run his mouth.

That was my point Ronald!
 
robert":1w24mk9l said:
inyati13":1w24mk9l said:
robert":1w24mk9l said:
Not even close!
robert, Jessse Jackson is so far under Mandela, he couldn't shine Mandela's shoes. Like Mandela or not who cares, that is a man's privilege. And whether Mandela's achievements are judged as good or bad is dependent on the prejudices of he who judges. But at least, Mandela has achievements and accomplishments to judge, all Jesse Jackson ever did is run his mouth.

That was my point Ronald!
I know. Just wanted to second it. :tiphat:
 
robert":1w19tw1p said:
Not even close!
Really?? Or was Mandela just much better at remaining out of the spotlight and hiding his real agenda while allowing others to carry out the carnage. Not totally unlike our own present "fearless leader". I prefer to listen to Knersie and others from SA who have and are living in it.
 
A little over a year ago we had a young lady working in our office. She is well educated and very intelligent. She is black. Born in America to an American mother and an African father (she could be president). She grew up in West Africa and came back to America for college. She lived and worked for a year in South Africa, several years in West Africa, and several years in the USA. I think all of that gives her a much better understand to judge Nelson Mandela with than I have. She said her opinion was that he was the greatest man to ever live. Although I don't totally agree with that statement I can understand why she felt that way. I certainly feel that there have been greater men. But there have been much worse men who were raised to power.
 
HOSS":2xl5s6vs said:
I'm not a respecter or hater of Mandel. I did find this open letter interesting and almost prophetic. This was written in 2004 on the 10th anniversary of the ending of apartheid. Since 1994 the violent crime rate is SA has increased to 10x what it is in the US. Unemployment is 40% and the farming production has about collapsed. I do not support apartheid policies but this is the result of making changes from what order had been in place for decades to rule by people that had absolutely no education or experience only tribal allegiances. There are more blacks in prison now in SA than there were under white rule. The change should have been more gradual to allow for the system and the economy to make natural adjustments. Just my opinion of course.


An Apology to Blacks from a white South African

We apologize for giving you doctors and free medical care, as a result of which you have been able to survive plagues and catastrophes and grow in numbers;

We apologize for teaching you to read and write, and for building you thousands of schools which we have repaired after you vandalized them and burned them down, After all, if you could not read how could you have learned the words of Karl Marx, Mao Tse-tung, and others who taught you how evil we are and how oppressed you are?

We apologize for building factories and highways and buildings that gave you employment;

We apologize for developing farms that to this day feed the bulk of Africa;

We apologize for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric instead of leaving you wearing the animal skins that you wore before our arrival;

We apologize for taking minerals from the earth, which you neither used, nor wanted, nor even knew, were there;

We apologize for those among us who have established welfare organizations and have devoted their entire life towards making life richer and better for your people;

We apologize that we have built roads and railroad tracks between towns and cities which you now use every day without thinking;

We apologize for paying the lion's share of taxation while spending less on ourselves than on you;

We apologize for giving you law and order and a strong central government that prevented your own warrior nations like the Zulu and the Matabele from slaughtering black people by the hundreds of thousands as they did year in and year out before we came;

We apologize for teaching you the English language which has opened to you the entire world of European thought, culture, and commerce;

For all these sins we humbly beg forgiveness, and if you will only accept our apology we will be happy to take back all of the above evil and horrible things we have done to you and return to our European homeland.


A Warning for Americans: A Message from a South African

People used to say that South Africa was 20 years behind the rest of the Western world. Television, for example, came late to South Africa (but so did pornography and the gay rights movement).

Today, however, South Africa may be the grim model of the future Western world, for events in America reveals trends chillingly similar to those that destroyed our country.

America's structures are of "Western Culture". Your Congress, your lobbying groups, your free speech, and the way ordinary Americans either get involved or ignore politics are peculiarly your "Western Culture", not the way most of the world operates. But the fact that only about a third of Americans deem it important to vote is horrifying in light of how close you are to losing your Western character.

Writing letters to the press, manning stands at county fairs, hosting fund-raising dinners, attending rallies, setting up conferences, writing your Congressman -- that is what you know, and what you are comfortable with. Those are the political methods you've created for yourselves to keep your country on track and to ensure political accountability,with freedom and justice for all.

But woe to you if -- or more likely, when -- the rules change. Americans may soon find themselves unable or unwilling to stand up to challenge the new political methods that will be the inevitable result of the ethnic metamorphosis now taking place in America. Unable to cope with the new rules of the game -- violence, mob riots, intimidation through accusations of racism, demands for proportionality based on racial numbers, and all the other social and political weapons used by the have-nots to bludgeon treasure and power from the haves -- Americans, like others before them, will no doubt cave in. They will compromise away their independence and ultimately their way of life.

That is exactly what happened in South Africa. I know, because I was there and I saw it happen.

HOSS, not just your opinion. It is documented fact. No continent suffered under the yoke of Colonization to the extent that Africa did. Every country in east Europe had a colony in Africa. The entire continent was divided up among the east European countries. Decolonization began to get traction after WWII. It spread across Africa like a wildfire. The Union of South Africa got its full independence form the United Kingdom in 1963. It is now known as the Republic of South Africa. In all cases, there was a decline in gross domestic product, infrastructure and worst of all governance. Crime increased as a result of poor governance. Tax revenue failed and most countries are still in decline. Look at Zimbabwe, one of the highest inflation rates in the world.
 
From the SACP's Umsebenzi Online:

Last night the millions of the people of South Africa, majority of whom the working class and poor, and the billions of the rest of the people the world over, lost a true revolutionary, President Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, Tata Madiba.

The South African Communist Party (SACP) joins the people of South Africa and the world in expressing its most sincere condolences to Ms Graca Machel and the entire Mandela family on the loss of what President Zuma correctly described as South Africa's greatest son, Comrade Mandela. We also wish to use this opportunity to express our solidarity with the African National Congress, an organisation that produced him and that he also served with distinction, as well as all his colleagues and comrades in our broader liberation movement. As Tata Madiba said: "It is not the kings and generals that make history but the masses of the people, the workers, the peasants…"

The passing away of Cde Mandela marks an end to the life of one of the greatest revolutionaries of the 20th century, who fought for freedom and against all forms of oppression in both their countries and globally. As part of the masses that make history, Cde Mandela's contribution in the struggle for freedom was located and steeled in the collective membership and leadership of our revolutionary national liberation movement as led by the ANC – for he was not an island. In Cde Mandela we had a brave and courageous soldier, patriot and internationalist who, to borrow from Che Guevara, was a true revolutionary guided by great feelings of love for his people, an outstanding feature of all genuine people's revolutionaries.

At his arrest in August 1962, Nelson Mandela was not only a member of the then underground South African Communist Party, but was also a member of our Party's Central Committee. To us as South African communists, Cde Mandela shall forever symbolise the monumental contribution of the SACP in our liberation struggle. The contribution of communists in the struggle to achieve the South African freedom has very few parallels in the history of our country. After his release from prison in 1990, Cde Madiba became a great and close friend of the communists till his last days….

In honour of this gallant fighter the SACP will intensify the struggle against all forms of inequality, including intensifying the struggle for socialism, as the only political and economic solution to the problems facing humanity.

Would a sane world honor a covert Stalinist, who on Moscow's orders, set up a terrorist organization known for setting bombs in railway stations, nightclubs and supermarket carparks?

A man who fought an obviously immoral Apartheid system, in order to replace it with even worse Soviet style socialism?
 
TexasBred, would you please restrain yourself. I don't understand your hatred and bitterness.

Take note, Richard: This thread was started by Chrisy with the following humble non-inflammatory statement, "who pasted away today God rest his soul." I didn't see a single post on here where anyone tried to make anymore out of it than a statement of sorrow. You are the one who came to it like a fly on shyt. Why don't you let her have her say in dignity? It is a rather simple statement that he rest in peace. Why does she have to endure your taunts? I realize it is your privilege to be who you are. I hope you are real proud of who you are. I wonder if you hold yourself to be a good christian person. If so, I wonder what you are doing here is a good demonstration of that.
 
inyati13":2aq4pb6h said:
TexasBred, would you please restrain yourself. I don't understand your hatred and bitterness.

Take note, Richard: This thread was started by Chrisy with the following humble non-inflammatory statement, "who pasted away today God rest his soul." I didn't see a single post on here where anyone tried to make anymore out of it than a statement of sorrow. You are the one who came to it like a fly on shyt. Why don't you let her have her say in dignity? It is a rather simple statement that he rest in peace. Why does she have to endure your taunts? I realize it is your privilege to be who you are. I hope you are real proud of who you are. I wonder if you hold yourself to be a good christian person. If so, I wonder what you are doing here is a good demonstration of that.

Inyati there are several here and on the thread I started about the man that are not necessarily painting a pretty picture of the man. I'm just presenting facts. You don't like them, there is a function you can set to not have to read my posts. You judge my stand with my God after some of the posts you've mad. Sort of the pot calling the kettle black don't you think. Now you spend a little time in SA. You formed an opinion. You were still an outsider sitting on the sideline reading the weekly wipe. I'm posting information from people who have lived there and/or had connection for ages. (Add this information to your quest for knowledge) Now get over yourself a$$ hole !!!!
 
TexasBred":3vxtkqnk said:
inyati13":3vxtkqnk said:
TexasBred, would you please restrain yourself. I don't understand your hatred and bitterness.

Take note, Richard: This thread was started by Chrisy with the following humble non-inflammatory statement, "who pasted away today God rest his soul." I didn't see a single post on here where anyone tried to make anymore out of it than a statement of sorrow. You are the one who came to it like a fly on shyt. Why don't you let her have her say in dignity? It is a rather simple statement that he rest in peace. Why does she have to endure your taunts? I realize it is your privilege to be who you are. I hope you are real proud of who you are. I wonder if you hold yourself to be a good christian person. If so, I wonder what you are doing here is a good demonstration of that.

Inyati there are several here and on the thread I started about the man that are not necessarily painting a pretty picture of the man. I'm just presenting facts. You don't like them, there is a function you can set to not have to read my posts. You judge my stand with my God after some of the posts you've mad. Sort of the pot calling the kettle black don't you think. Now you spend a little time in SA. You formed an opinion. You were still an outsider sitting on the sideline reading the weekly wipe. I'm posting information from people who have lived there and/or had connection for ages. (Add this information to your quest for knowledge) Now get over yourself a$$ hole !!!!
now now no need to insult each other, we all have our own opinions and fortunately live in Countries where we can raise them freely, all we need to do is agree to disagree on things that we believe in. If someone writes something you do not believe in your opinion is right just say without insult or malice, as there is nothing better than a good debate to see other sides of things without being cruel or derogatory to one another. Yes I started this thread with a statement of sorrow for in my eyes a great man, in his later years, but have been interested to see others views, and if I don't like them I have an off button to skip them, as in a lot of cases I do.
 
TexasBred":1nb2xwwx said:
Sorry if I insulted anyone. I was simply giving him another title to put on his resume. :mrgreen:
:lol:
Holy moly that's even better than the first response. Who knew an old man could be so quick witted and be so bad at softball at the same time
 
From what I've read about him my flag damn sure wasn't lowered . If you look deep enough into it he ordered some pretty horrific crimes on people..
 
inyati13":khzb1okd said:
HOSS, not just your opinion. It is documented fact. No continent suffered under the yoke of Colonization to the extent that Africa did. Every country in east Europe had a colony in Africa. The entire continent was divided up among the east European countries. Decolonization began to get traction after WWII. It spread across Africa like a wildfire. The Union of South Africa got its full independence form the United Kingdom in 1963. It is now known as the Republic of South Africa. In all cases, there was a decline in gross domestic product, infrastructure and worst of all governance. Crime increased as a result of poor governance. Tax revenue failed and most countries are still in decline. Look at Zimbabwe, one of the highest inflation rates in the world.

I have been to SA twice. It is really really sad in many human ways, but a lesson for us:

You understand colonialism better after being waited on hand and foot.
You understand fear better after seeing the results of a farm invasion when poor people that don't get the instant wealth they were promised (for their vote), and they think they can get away with...
You understand law enforcement better when you see hand made signs like "Area Patrolled by xxxx Kamando".
You understand politics better after seeing land owners being driven off by confiscatory taxation.
It is amazing that Nelson M was able to eventually rise above most of this. Rest in Peace.
 
It's funny, not ha ha funny but strange funny, that the people that live in S.Africa are mourning his death and are saying what a good and great man he was, (and I'm not going on about it) but all a lot of folks here on the boards are saying what a bad man he was, just watched a few interviews on the NEWS made by the common people of the area he was born in and all they done was praise the man. Guess none of us knows what it is like to live in these poor Countries, as we only visit them as tourist and never see what is really going on, and the Media only gives you an insight to what they want you to see, propaganda has a lot to answer to.
 
All the land owning farmers got run out of sa Chrisy. Now they're here. Can't really make the sa news when you're not in sa.We have some good friends that were born there and ran out.
Kinda like the same people praising the potus are the ones that are benefitting from his policies and mandates.
 
chrisy":1qeo3e08 said:
It's funny, not ha ha funny but strange funny, that the people that live in S.Africa are mourning his death and are saying what a good and great man he was, (and I'm not going on about it) but all a lot of folks here on the boards are saying what a bad man he was, just watched a few interviews on the NEWS made by the common people of the area he was born in and all they done was praise the man. Guess none of us knows what it is like to live in these poor Countries, as we only visit them as tourist and never see what is really going on, and the Media only gives you an insight to what they want you to see, propaganda has a lot to answer to.

Forbid that it happen but you would see the same thing on the news were it to happen in the US
 

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