Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Four of the local six large animal vets have retired within the last several years. Only one did any small animal. None have been able to sell their practices. Are you seeing a trend like this?
My Vets Closing their Practice
- Thread starter Stocker Steve
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BFE
Well-known member
Two practices in this county. Both are mixed practices. One has 3-4 vets on staff, the other is a single vet who's 70 ballpark. I use the single, he's great about everything. Don't know how the other is personally but they have to be good to have enough business to keep that many on staff.
I'm hoping mine will get a replacement to take over when he can't do it anymore.
I'm hoping mine will get a replacement to take over when he can't do it anymore.
The one vet that had been here by house all my life retired and a younger guy bought it. He is a really cool guy but I can't see how he is making it.
Travlr
Well-known member
Ya know... this is just one more example of an impending train wreck and no one doing anything about it.
Our wonderful government knows livestock producers are having problems... and the vegans and animal rights people are louder and more numerous so they get the attention because they carry more votes.
Kids that want to be vets are out there and can't afford vet school. The powers that be could be giving grants, loans, scholarships to kids based on them being required to becoming large animal vets... but instead they are giving those assistance programs to English lit and psychology majors that will never find a job in their field.
Our wonderful government knows livestock producers are having problems... and the vegans and animal rights people are louder and more numerous so they get the attention because they carry more votes.
Kids that want to be vets are out there and can't afford vet school. The powers that be could be giving grants, loans, scholarships to kids based on them being required to becoming large animal vets... but instead they are giving those assistance programs to English lit and psychology majors that will never find a job in their field.
A.J.
Well-known member
We're blessed to have a local large animal clinic in town that keeps 4-5 vets on staff. They primarily make farm calls instead of bringing them into them. Some of the other clinics in town that used to do some large animal have cut back to small animals and refer most of the large animal stuff to the one large animal clinic. We're covered up with small animal practices, and they all stay hopping most of the time.
chaded
Well-known member
My understanding which of course is limited, is that it's not necessarily that people can't afford vet school although no doubt there are some in that category but that vet school is highly competitive to get into and with limited slots.
Rafter S
Well-known member
There are some programs to do just that. Here's one example I found, and I'm pretty sure there are others.
littletom
Well-known member
You can get a chute side blood test for a few dollars know if bred in about 10 minutes. Might save a lot trouble. As long as 30 days bred
simme
Old Dumb Guy
There is the USDA program mentioned by Rafter for vet school tuition reimbursement for underserved areas. There is also a US Army program for tuition reimbursement if you agree to serve in the military as a vet for a period of time. At least those two programs. Most folks here are conservative. Do we need more government subsidies or loan forgiveness programs beyond what is already there?
I think one reason many of the areas are underserved is that there is not enough demand or capacity to support a full time vet. After a new vet settles into an area with their education costs forgiven, they still need to have enough money coming in to pay for overhead, housing, medical costs, equipment, food, savings for retirement, etc. And that service area needs to be reasonably close together. Enough work at each stop to generate income and minimum travel time between stops. No income while driving unless there is a fee for distance which is way more than fuel costs. The money to pay the vet has to eventually come from the income from the cattle. If the vet wants a haul in clinic, that is a considerable expense for building and equipment for a new graduate. There are still graduates that want to do cow work, but economic reality sets in trying to make it work. I sure don't want our government subsidizing operating costs for cattle or vets. Don't need Obamacare socialism for cows, do we?
I think areas with lots of cows and few people are generally adequately covered with vets. Those areas probably have cattle owners that cover most of their basic vet needs themselves. When they need a vet, they probably have adequate handling facilities and are prepared for the vet visit which makes it quick and efficient. Those underserved areas may have more small or hobby operations that require the new vet to be cow herder, cowboy, roper and vet. Which takes more time and makes the service more expensive or less profitable.
I think the number of vet graduates and government programs are just a piece of the issue. At some point, supply and demand come into play.
I think one reason many of the areas are underserved is that there is not enough demand or capacity to support a full time vet. After a new vet settles into an area with their education costs forgiven, they still need to have enough money coming in to pay for overhead, housing, medical costs, equipment, food, savings for retirement, etc. And that service area needs to be reasonably close together. Enough work at each stop to generate income and minimum travel time between stops. No income while driving unless there is a fee for distance which is way more than fuel costs. The money to pay the vet has to eventually come from the income from the cattle. If the vet wants a haul in clinic, that is a considerable expense for building and equipment for a new graduate. There are still graduates that want to do cow work, but economic reality sets in trying to make it work. I sure don't want our government subsidizing operating costs for cattle or vets. Don't need Obamacare socialism for cows, do we?
I think areas with lots of cows and few people are generally adequately covered with vets. Those areas probably have cattle owners that cover most of their basic vet needs themselves. When they need a vet, they probably have adequate handling facilities and are prepared for the vet visit which makes it quick and efficient. Those underserved areas may have more small or hobby operations that require the new vet to be cow herder, cowboy, roper and vet. Which takes more time and makes the service more expensive or less profitable.
I think the number of vet graduates and government programs are just a piece of the issue. At some point, supply and demand come into play.
Travlr
Well-known member
Well there is a lot of truth to that as well. But the point remains that large animal vets are necessary and retiring at an unsustainable rate... and there are ways to get young vets interested that aren't being effectively employed and some not even being considered.
GoWyo
Well-known member
StrojanHerefords
Well-known member
The requirements to get into vet school are excessive. When I got out of high school, I thought becoming a veterinarian but I got to talking to a gal who was in school on the GI bill. She said that many Army docs were vet school rejects. The thought of living out MASH if I didn't get into Vet school didn't appeal to me. Long story short, I have the aptitude to be a large animal vet but college doesn't work for people who think differently.
Large animal veterinary should be viewed as skilled trade rather than the nicer alternative to being a MD.
Large animal veterinary should be viewed as skilled trade rather than the nicer alternative to being a MD.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Here is the solution.
When you visit your medical "doctor", you may be seen by an MD, a nurse practitioner, or a physician's assistant. All three of those can examine, diagnose, order tests, make referrals, treat, and prescribe medications for humans. In the veterinary medicine world, those actions are limited to licensed veterinarians only. There are a few LVT's (licensed vet techs) that are graduates of accredited schools and have state licenses, but they cannot legally perform any of those actions. They can give rabies vaccines. There are many vet assistants that have on the job training, but are not recognized as veterinary professionals, even though they have skills.
This is due to state laws (veterinary practice acts) that limit those actions to only licensed graduates of veterinary medicine schools (DVM).
There is the problem and the solution. Why does "doctoring" a cow, horse or dog require a higher level of education and training than human medicine? Solution is adding these classes of providers with less education and skill than a DVM, less cost of training than a DVM, less education debt, smaller salary requirements, more availability, and still operating under the supervision of a DVM somewhere. If you go to an urgent care facility in this area, there will generally be a nurse practitioner and a few assistants and a receptionist. No MD in the building. But you can receive the care needed for most things. Apply this model to veterinary medicine and things should improve for the overworked doctors and the clients that can't get the service they need.
When you visit your medical "doctor", you may be seen by an MD, a nurse practitioner, or a physician's assistant. All three of those can examine, diagnose, order tests, make referrals, treat, and prescribe medications for humans. In the veterinary medicine world, those actions are limited to licensed veterinarians only. There are a few LVT's (licensed vet techs) that are graduates of accredited schools and have state licenses, but they cannot legally perform any of those actions. They can give rabies vaccines. There are many vet assistants that have on the job training, but are not recognized as veterinary professionals, even though they have skills.
This is due to state laws (veterinary practice acts) that limit those actions to only licensed graduates of veterinary medicine schools (DVM).
There is the problem and the solution. Why does "doctoring" a cow, horse or dog require a higher level of education and training than human medicine? Solution is adding these classes of providers with less education and skill than a DVM, less cost of training than a DVM, less education debt, smaller salary requirements, more availability, and still operating under the supervision of a DVM somewhere. If you go to an urgent care facility in this area, there will generally be a nurse practitioner and a few assistants and a receptionist. No MD in the building. But you can receive the care needed for most things. Apply this model to veterinary medicine and things should improve for the overworked doctors and the clients that can't get the service they need.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
Well let's all look at it from a young vets perspective; if you don't already have a passion for livestock why in the world would you want to be a large animal vet.
I was talking with a local vet. He has a client who raises some type of lap dog. Guaranteed C-section ( they should just install a zipper, lol) the vet goes to his warm, dry, well lit office and preforms the C-section. He charges $500 for his services and the owner never bats an eye because the puppies are worth $1,800 apiece.
Or he can go to a cold, poorly lit, barn with a leaky roof right over the pen he is working in. On a 1,400 lb cow that has been in labor for 16 hrs, got chased around the pasture twice before they could get her in, and is generally tired of being screwed with. Did I mention the boot deep mud on the 100yd walk from the road to the barn?
Why would anyone want to be a large animal vet? They have to have a passion for it and a family that is willing to make sacrifices for that passion.
My son is only ten, but he wants to be a bovine only vet. Said he doesn't want to have to mess with cats and dogs. I'm pretty proud
I was talking with a local vet. He has a client who raises some type of lap dog. Guaranteed C-section ( they should just install a zipper, lol) the vet goes to his warm, dry, well lit office and preforms the C-section. He charges $500 for his services and the owner never bats an eye because the puppies are worth $1,800 apiece.
Or he can go to a cold, poorly lit, barn with a leaky roof right over the pen he is working in. On a 1,400 lb cow that has been in labor for 16 hrs, got chased around the pasture twice before they could get her in, and is generally tired of being screwed with. Did I mention the boot deep mud on the 100yd walk from the road to the barn?
Why would anyone want to be a large animal vet? They have to have a passion for it and a family that is willing to make sacrifices for that passion.
My son is only ten, but he wants to be a bovine only vet. Said he doesn't want to have to mess with cats and dogs. I'm pretty proud
M.Magis
Well-known member
Yep, it has nothing to do with not enough kids being able to afford vet school. Wayyyy more apply than are accepted. Given the choice, most would rather work on lap dogs and cats in a warm office, 9-4, for 5x the cost of a farm call. Like the old saying, work smarter, not harder.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
Why don't we as producers step up and fill those roles in our own herds?
I don't do C-sections and I don't jack bulls. Anything else I do, and usually as good as the average mixed practice vet.
So I need a vet for BSEing bulls, scripts, VFDs, and occasionally shipping specimens to a lab.
90% of routine vet procedures is just having the confidence to try. Anyone can give a vaccine or castrate. You just have to think you can.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
I think that is the reason this is not much of a problem in the areas with lots of cattle and few people. They do what they have to do. When my daughter graduated, she worked at a 6 doctor mixed animal clinic in Georgia. There was a larger purebred operation in the area owned by a rich old guy. He had a young guy from the west (Montana or Idaho, I think) as his manager. This young guy came to the vet clinic to get supplies to do C-sections in case he needed to do one. The folks at the clinic were sort of surprised, but the young guy had done them before back home. Lots of folks don't have the confidence or skills to do those things. Lots of people don't have the knowledge.
Travlr
Well-known member
When I was working for the vets in Arkansas you would not believe the number of people that would call for services and when we arrived they would want their animal treated... still loose in the field and sometimes woods. They had no way to contain the animal and expected us to catch it.Well let's all look at it from a young vets perspective; if you don't already have a passion for livestock why in the world would you want to be a large animal vet.
I was talking with a local vet. He has a client who raises some type of lap dog. Guaranteed C-section ( they should just install a zipper, lol) the vet goes to his warm, dry, well lit office and preforms the C-section. He charges $500 for his services and the owner never bats an eye because the puppies are worth $1,800 apiece.
Or he can go to a cold, poorly lit, barn with a leaky roof right over the pen he is working in. On a 1,400 lb cow that has been in labor for 16 hrs, got chased around the pasture twice before they could get her in, and is generally tired of being screwed with. Did I mention the boot deep mud on the 100yd walk from the road to the barn?
Why would anyone want to be a large animal vet? They have to have a passion for it and a family that is willing to make sacrifices for that passion.
My son is only ten, but he wants to be a bovine only vet. Said he doesn't want to have to mess with cats and dogs. I'm pretty proud
If it was my own practice I would add an automatic $200 to any bill if the animal I was going to treat needed to be caught... and I would tell them up front when they called.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Sort of.... but the trend started 15 or so years ago, fueled by local farmers getting out of the dairy business, which was the main source
of income for large animal vets. One vet that sold his clinic, the female veterinarian that bought it changed it to small animals only.
The large animal clinics that remain are staffed by fewer vets than before.
Buck Randall
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Nurse practitioners and physician's assistants both have significantly higher educational requirements than veterinary technicians. There really isn't an equivalent in the veterinary profession.
