Murray Greys and Ampules a real mystery- What do you know?

[toughntender]

Hello everyone. Here's the story I recently bred one of my best MG cows to an old ampule of Murray Grey semen. I realize it's backward, but I have my reasons. I was planning on breeding her to an ampule of a bull called Kydrabah Jester. As it turned out I mistakenly grabbed a different cane that also had ampules. None of the really old semen canes are marked very well, most just have a single letter or number at the top. Anyway, I already had the amp off the cane before I figured out the mistake. So to not risk damage by trying to put it back on I ended up thawing and breeding her with it. Here's my problem, we were told when we purchased the semen that this cane was from a bull called Cadella Park Sir Herbert, but it was not very well marked and the old guy wasn't real sure. My ultimate question for everyone is are there any Cattle Today users who can help me figure out the code to these old ampules? Here is what was marked on the ampule in black ink-
NOO/BM
CPC/7
I am assuming that it was collected in Australia as these were some of the very first MG bulls collected. From old books and literature, I have been able to piece together that NOO stands for Nooramunga the stud where the bulls were, and that BM are the initials of Mr. Marginson the owner. I assume the "CP" stands for Cadella Park. Aside from that we can only speculate. Perhaps the 2nd "C" was a typo and was supposed to be a "T". There is some question on this as at that time there were no bulls whose names started with a "C" qualified for export. The Nooramunga Stud was the first stud to secure a license to ship semen to the U.S. and had a basic monopoly on it in the beginning. A.I. was in its infancy and there were no real set systems for marking the ampules like today. Everybody was making it up as they went. The first bull they sent was Barragunda Atlas and we actually have a couple of cows bred to him. His ampules were marked in black NOO/BM BA/15. The other major bull that they owned was called Cadella Park Trigger. I have actually used some ampules of Cadella Park Trigger and they are marked completely differently and in green ink, and I think are from a later collection. These say-
NOO/BM
NCT/29
9-9907
Maybe the mystery ampule was just a very early collection of Cadella Park Trigger. I know this has been a very convoluted and involved question but I thought you should know the whole story. Also any other ampule information would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

I was looking at the information from a few of our old ampules. Unfortunately they are no longer viable. Here is what was written on one of them.
Cadella Park Jesse
CGG 31.8.72
OS 540 BM
From what I can tell, our ampule was collected on August 31, 1972. The OS 540 is Cadella Park Jesse's identifier. Cadella Park Sir Herbert's identifier is OS 250. If the identifier is still on the ampule then you will be able to determine the bull it came from.

 

[wbvs58]

I can only speak of my experience with Angus but I think most breed societies in Australia use similar.
Our current identifiers start with the breeders ID which is three letters followed by the year letter and then the individual number which is usually in order they are born. The breeders ID will start the letter that corresponds to the state they are in, the letters of that Trigger, NOO would suggest that he came from New South Wales.
This is probably not much help to you, that one that you are concerned about probably predates this system of ID but I would still think that the letters CPC just represent the breeders ID.
Best of luck with sorting it out, have you contacted the breed society in Australia? I am sure they would be very receptive to help you sort it out.
Ken

 

[toughntender]

Thanks Backbone, Ken.

I appreciate the help. I've spoken with a few people and have learned that Cadella Park Sir Herbert and Cadella Park Jesse were both shipped to the U.S. and were collected at New Breeds Industries in Kansas. The OS 540 is his tattoo identifier. OS stands for O'Sullivan, Peter O'Sullivan, the breeder. I don't think that the mystery amp is Herbert because it doesn't look like the ones I have from Jesse at all. Also, my amps from Jesse were from the week before 24.8.72.

The letter corresponding to the year makes sense. Mr. Marginson's first name was Fred. Was 1969 or 1970 a "B"? I have not contacted the association yet but may have to. Hey, we're making progress!

 

[Backbone Ranch]

After looking through a few of my old newspapers and sale catalogues, I was able to find a photo of Cadella Park Jesse, Barragunda Atlas, and Cadella Park Sir Herbert.
Barragunda Atlas

Cadella Park Jesse

Cadella Park Sir Herbert

 

[waihou]

You could check on line with the Australian Society for Cadella Park bulls with names beginning with C, born in the appropriate years and perhaps who the owners were and also with the American MG Society(ies) and the Canadian MG Society to see which Cadella Park bulls were used for grading up, I see there are 4 listed, CP Golden Boy and CP Minuteman as well as the 2 you mentioned.

 

[toughntender]

Thank you everyone for the help. We kind of hit a wall as far as any new information. The Australians can't find any information on that specific ampule. There were two Cadella Park bulls that start with "C". C.P. Chalmer and Celcius. Both are sons of Minuteman. I was able to find an old handwritten piece of paper from the AMGA secretary from many years ago that has many bulls listed and the numbers of ampules imported to the U.S. There was a bull called Cadella Park Combat that had only 100 ampules imported. Other than that I don't have much information. I am putting a call in to the AMGA and we'll see if they can find anything. Just by the look and markings on the amp, I believe it came from Australia, is very old and one of the very first collected.

One nice thing about using DNA technology is the ability to test parentage on the animals that we have. I always put one or two drops from each ampule on an Igenity blood card. Since we already have C.P. Trigger tested, we can compare the mystery amp to him. I also know where there are a couple of viable doses of C.P. Minuteman, and hopefully we can get him tested too. Just in case the mystery amp is a son.

 

[waihou]

I know this isn't going to help with your search, but I just looked up Cadella Park Combat and see that he was by Thologolong Snowman and born in 1968. Semen probably imported to USA via Canada. I have a copy of the book, Murray Greys, published in Australia in 1972, which lists all the studs of the time and illustrated with many photos of the foundation animals. It says, " it was estimated that by 1972 some 50,000 straws of semen had been exported to North America and there were at least 3,000 calves on the ground in Canada. It also mentions Nooramunga stud and the fact they were the first licensed to export semen to America.
Best of luck with producing progeny from these foundation sires of the breed. I would be interested in seeing photos of them if you succeed.
One of our first foundation cows was a C grade by Cadella Park Minute Man. She lived up to the reputation of her sire in that the Minute Man progeny were high headed and temperamental!

 

[toughntender]

We've been able to put together quite a collection of the old Bulls that built the Murray Grey breed. There are several breeders here in the states working on resurecting the old genetics. I prefer them because they aren't nearly as large framed as some of the newer genetics have gotten to be. My cleanup bull is actually a son of Kimolong Andamooka. I've got some Parknook Pelion, Tuerong Park Igor, Kydrabah Jester, C.P. Golden boy, and quite a few others. I have some bred to Bimbadeen Westward Ho, and Atlas as I said before. I also really like the calves that I've gotten out of a bull called Olympia's Pelion. I know of one CT user who has got some cows bred to Bimbadeen Innamincka's Star, Maneroo Gladiator, and Michaelong Canadian Invasion.

One problem we have breeding to the old genetics is, is we only have a few pictures and maybe the pedigree to go by. Most of the breeders who actually saw the bulls are gone, or can't remember how the calves turned out. It's good to know that information like that about Minuteman. Waihou do you have any other memories of the old bulls we're talking about?

 

[waihou]

We started with MGs in 1979, but being in NZ, we didn't get to see those foundation bulls in the flesh either. Many cows were imported and also a few bulls-including Bimbadeen Westward Ho, before he went on to the States, but being a Mannasidosis carrier he left a trail of problems behind too.
We used Parknook Pelion ourselves, and also Maneroo Cadet, a son of Maneroo Fulton 2nd.
Cadet came to NZ and was the first Murray Grey bull to win a Royal Show championship


This is Braemore Barbara, the C grade cow (1st cross) we bought who was a daughter of Cadella Park Minute Man, probably aged here about 6, and out of an Angus cow


and Minute Man himself.


I have to agree that in the quest for size the breed lost its muscle! We are endeavouring to reduce the frame size and increase the muscle, but it is a long slow process and I'm not sure we have enough years to do it! Having said that though, it is nice to compete against the established beef breeds in NZ as a serious contender and not be classed as one of the 'boutique/toy breeds' anymore!
We have just AI'd some cows to an Aussie bull that also has progeny on the ground in USA, from a stud who is currently concentrating on carcase and quality-Wallawong. We look forward to hopefully 6 meaty calves in July 2015.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

That is quite the line up of old sires. Kydrabah Jester is probably the one that I know the least about. As you stated previously, your clean-up bull is sired by Kimolong Andamooka. Andamooka was sired by Michaelong Roman Invasion, an extremely prominent bull of the breed. I have posted a photo of Kimolong Andamooka below.

Cadella Park Minute Man was mentioned earlier in this thread as the sire of both Cadella Park Chalmer and Cadella Park Celsius. He is pictured below in working condition. He weighed over 2,100 lbs. He is a perfect 10 stars for tenderness and 6 stars for marbling. A son of his sold for $8,100 as a 2 year old in the 1970s.

Cadella Park Chalmer is pictured below. Both he and Cadella Park Celsius have the initials CPC.

Cadella Park Celsius. This photo came from an old Murray Grey newspaper.

Parknook Pelion is a Murray Grey out of Tasmania. I believe that he is a frame score 5. At 44 months, he weighed 2,173 lbs. The few progeny that I have seen from him have been exceptional. His progeny have a lot of capacity, and carry a lot of weight on a smaller frame. His sons really stamp their calves as well, and they are extremely uniform.

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

Well since we keep digging up old threads. Why not this gem?

I'm back on the hunt for bulls like this that I consider heritage. The biggest concern I have seen is the feet. Most of them are pictured in just enough grass that you can't see their feet well.

Got our first round of ET and AI calves on the ground and I hope to put in some Cadella Park Golden Boy embryos this spring.

Has anyone every used an ampule? None of our AI techs knew what to do with them!

 

[Nkline]

I flushed a cow a few years ago to Spur Emulous Master the 1971 international grand champion bull. I kept a resulting bull of the flush, he was one of the heaviest muscled Angus bulls I have ever seen. He got hurt after a couple years, we luckily had collected him for some future use. He through some very nice calves. They were very stylish with massive tops, and have made good cows so far. Genomics put him in top 16 percentile of tested cattle for ribeye dispite his dam being lower than him. His calves have performed well on the grid and had similar growth to their contemporaries. I think some of the old genetics in amps represent a good opportunity to bring some lost genes back into the breed giving good breeders tools for improvement.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes, we used ampules when we started breeding Simmentals.
I know you have to thaw in warm water - don't remember temp or length of time. I do know you have to have a sharp tool to scribe the amp, so you can easily snap the lid off. That's all I remember. Hubby handled all of that.

 

[simme]

Has anyone every used an ampule? None of our AI techs knew what to do with them!

AI using ampules instead of straws

I received a semen tank from a relative because of his bad health stopped him from AI work. In this tank was approx 1000 straws of viable semen. Old but still checked good by a lab. Now the question, In the tank is some semen stored in ampules. What is the procedure for using the ampules?? I...

www.cattletoday.com

I think thaw time in the ice bath may be a little longer than indicated above. Volume in an ampule is much more than a straw. Supposed to have more sperm in them back in the old days.

There was a setup with a drilled rod and a short piece of tubing and a rubber bulb, I think. The version that works now is an infusion pipette and syringe (see link below). There is info online on the procedure. I have never handled one but remember the first cow I saw AI bred in the early 60's, I think. Hereford semen in an ampule. Bred by a local dairy guy that was a rep for Curtis, best I remember.

https://www.continentalplastic.com/products/drilled-infusette-tubes-18-non-sterile

 

[Redgully]

My MIL used to assist her uncle who was an ai tech, she was quite young but does remember the guys used to thaw the ampules in their mouths!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Seems like hubby used to thaw maybe 5 minutes? He used a pipette with a poly-bulb slipped onto the end and squeezed the bulb and sucked the semen up into the pipette. When in place, he just squeezed the poly bulb to inseminate. I would see where a syringe "should" work better if it fit PERFECTLY in the pipette.