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certherfbeef

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Here is the Hazlett bull I still have breeding rights to:Day Rupert Tone 092

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This is FGR Lady Victra L1M,(daughter of Buckshot 7B) with her calf TSG Muscle Tone at one week old, BW 92, unassisted. The calf is sired by Day Rupert Tone 092

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DKG Rupert's Lawmaker, LawmanXHazlett, sired by 092, out of a cow I sold to my brother, who is a Green Willow Associate. I bought this heifer back. Yearling picture. Yearling weight 823. Mother gave over a gallon of milk on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone, was in top 7% milk EPD.
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Texan

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certherfbeef":3q7jytkw said:
Mother gave over a gallon of milk on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone.......
I was always under the impression that milk was weighed, not
measured in units of volume?
Also, why do you Hereford breeders just use the back two teats?
I would have a hard time getting my calves to conform to that!
Any tips for the commercial guy?
 

cherokeeruby

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Thank goodness those animals have some white on their necks, if you dared to post another picture of a hereford missing the white mane I am afraid some here would come and get you. Milk sounds good, that is a lot of milk from two quarters. Brahmans do about that much seems high for a hereford. Was that from a twice daily milking or just random milking?
 

greenwillowherefords

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The cow has gotten her head stuck temporarily, of course. She is much better looking than the angle shows...more on her later.

The other cow mentioned concerning milking ability, it was once two days in a row, and we are not dairy people or experts, but we found out how much she was giving. At the time she had a 20 or 21 MM EPD and I would say it was pretty accurate. That cow was LCC Miss Lawmaker, originally from Tennessee. They later dropped her MM EPD to 17. I don't know why.

The heifer pictured is the easiest fleshing animal I've ever owned. The bull calf is coming on great, he is correct, deep, thick, long, and will lick your fingers. He was born April 30 this year. His full brother, TSG Buckshot Tone 1 is serving in a commercial herd now. When the picture of the horned bull was taken, he was 3 years old. He has matured into what I feel is an awesome bull, but of course that's one man's opinion.
Thanks for the kind comments. :)
 

Texan

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greenwillowherefords":270it2p3 said:
Mother gave over a gallon of milk on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone, was in top 7% milk EPD.
greenwillowherefords":270it2p3 said:
The other cow mentioned concerning milking ability, it was once two days in a row, and we are not dairy people or experts, but we found out how much she was giving. At the time she had a 20 or 21 MM EPD and I would say it was pretty accurate.
Willow, can you see from reading your own quotes how some of us might be a little concerned about the EPD numbers you guys toss around? You talk about how much milk she gave "on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone" and in the same statement brag about her milk EPD. I guess I'm wrong, but I consider the term "on test" to involve some more scientific methods with a little bit better controls. Then you admit that you milked her "once two days in a row" and use that to conclude that her EPD was "pretty accurate."

That might lead some of us less knowledgable types to question the inputs used by you registered breeders to come up with all EPD numbers! Are you that casual about the use of scales for your BW, WW and YW numbers? Do you just try to get close?
 

txag

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greenwillowherefords":35yeirk3 said:
They later dropped her MM EPD to 17. I don't know why.

her milk epd was dropped because epd's are not only calculated using the animal's individual performance but the performance of relatives as well. obviously, the performance of some relatives (sire, dam, offspring, etc) of your cow caused the epd to drop.

MM epd is not based on pounds of milk but on pounds of calf weaned due to milk production. as with other epd's, MM is to be used as a comparison.
 

Frankie

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Texan":9lokzff2 said:
greenwillowherefords":9lokzff2 said:
Mother gave over a gallon of milk on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone, was in top 7% milk EPD.
greenwillowherefords":9lokzff2 said:
The other cow mentioned concerning milking ability, it was once two days in a row, and we are not dairy people or experts, but we found out how much she was giving. At the time she had a 20 or 21 MM EPD and I would say it was pretty accurate.
Willow, can you see from reading your own quotes how some of us might be a little concerned about the EPD numbers you guys toss around? You talk about how much milk she gave "on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone" and in the same statement brag about her milk EPD. I guess I'm wrong, but I consider the term "on test" to involve some more scientific methods with a little bit better controls. Then you admit that you milked her "once two days in a row" and use that to conclude that her EPD was "pretty accurate."

That might lead some of us less knowledgable types to question the inputs used by you registered breeders to come up with all EPD numbers! Are you that casual about the use of scales for your BW, WW and YW numbers? Do you just try to get close?

The milk EPD is pounds of calf, not pounds of milk. As soon as milk EPDs came out several years ago, some people promptly went out and milked their Angus cows. Sure enough, they found that cows with higher milk EPDs produced more milk than cows with lower milk EPDs. But that doesn't affect actual EPDs created by the breed associations. Neither does this report, but I thought some people might be interested:

http://beef.unl.edu/stories/200312230.shtml
Differences in Milk EPD Were Reflective of Differences In Weaning Weight EPD

“A large five-state, five-year study was conducted to validate the hypothesis that milk EPD truly reflects differences in weaning weight due to milk. Cows were maintained at six different locations representing relatively diverse environments throughout the southeastern quadrant of the U.S. Twenty-four Angus sires were selected for either low or high milk EPD, but with similar growth EPDs, and mated to Angus cows. The average spread in milk EPD between the low and high lines was 39 lb (-13 to +26). Lactation records for 192 daughters were used to evaluate 12-hour milk yield and weaning weight of progeny. The correlation between sires milk EPD and 12-hour milk yield was moderate to high (0.56). The difference between lines for 12 hour milk yield was 1.45 lb. The difference between low and high lines in calf weaning weight was 34 lb, which compared favorably with the spread between lines in milk EPD (39 lb). There was no statistical interaction between genetic line and location, which means that sires tended to rank similarly within each location. When milk EPDs were first published in the 1980s, there was considerable skepticism among beef producers. However, this study, along with previous studies, indicates that differences in milk EPD are reflective of differences in weaning weight between progeny (Baker et al. 2003. J. Anim. Sci. 81:1406).”

I’ll cut this out for emphasis:

“There was no statistical interaction between genetic line and location, which means that sires tended to rank similarly within each location.”

Thus, if a bull's daughters ranked high in milk production in one georgraphical area, he would likely rank the same in another area, when compared to the same bulls. I believe the same goes for other EPDs. Whether the bull is raised in Nebraska or Florida, his EPDs will allow you to compare him to bulls anywhere of any age.
 

greenwillowherefords

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Texan":1hqs9z2k said:
greenwillowherefords":1hqs9z2k said:
Mother gave over a gallon of milk on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone, was in top 7% milk EPD.
greenwillowherefords":1hqs9z2k said:
The other cow mentioned concerning milking ability, it was once two days in a row, and we are not dairy people or experts, but we found out how much she was giving. At the time she had a 20 or 21 MM EPD and I would say it was pretty accurate.
Willow, can you see from reading your own quotes how some of us might be a little concerned about the EPD numbers you guys toss around? You talk about how much milk she gave "on test twice out of the back 2 teats alone" and in the same statement brag about her milk EPD. I guess I'm wrong, but I consider the term "on test" to involve some more scientific methods with a little bit better controls. Then you admit that you milked her "once two days in a row" and use that to conclude that her EPD was "pretty accurate."

That might lead some of us less knowledgable types to question the inputs used by you registered breeders to come up with all EPD numbers! Are you that casual about the use of scales for your BW, WW and YW numbers? Do you just try to get close?

Whoa there! I no longer own the cow, hence I no longer have her pedigree complete with EPDs, so I can't remember the exact number but I remember that it was at least 20. On the daughter's pedigree, the dam's MM EPD had been changed to 17. I know well that the milk test was not scientific, it was just for my own knowledge. I thought that was pretty clear from the statement that I was not an expert. Txag, what I meant by "I don't know why," was that I don't know why after all those years the milk production changed that much on the daughters of the sire. The cow was 10 years old when we shipped her. Frankie, the folks at OSU just did a EPD confirming test involving Herefords that showed a strong relation between a high MM EPD and actual production. Texan, I am not that high on EPDs, so please don't attack me on them, OK?
 

txag

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greenwillowherefords":1mq24dr8 said:
Whoa there! I no longer own the cow, hence I no longer have her pedigree complete with EPDs, so I can't remember the exact number but I remember that it was at least 20.

not to pick on you, but even if you don't own the cow, you can look her up on the AHA website if you know her name.

greenwillowherefords":1mq24dr8 said:
Txag, what I meant by "I don't know why," was that I don't know why after all those years the milk production changed that much on the daughters of the sire.

:? your confusion has me a little confused. i thought you said the individual cow's epd changed? now you say the daughters of the sire changed? either way, it was probably due to more information coming in on other relatives (in the bulls' case, maybe other daughters or sons' daughters and in the cow's case, maybe her daughters?)

Maternal Milk:
"The milking ability of a sire's daughters expressed in pounds of calf weaned. It predicts the difference in average weaning weight of sires' daughters' progeny due to milking ability."
 

Frankie

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GWH said:
"Frankie, the folks at OSU just did a EPD confirming test involving Herefords that showed a strong relation between a high MM EPD and actual production."

I have not seen a report where they used Herefords, but have seen one they did using Angus bulls. In fact, it might have been part of the one I referenced, since that study included five states.
 

Texan

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greenwillowherefords":3rpsax27 said:
Whoa there!...........Texan, I am not that high on EPDs, so please don't attack me on them, OK?

You "Whoa there," Slick! I haven't attacked you on EPD's......yet! I tried to generalize with terms like "you guys" and "you registered breeders" so that you wouldn't get your pink panties in a wad! For somebody that's "not that high on EPDs," why the Hell do you refer to them so much?

And by the way, as a registered breeder, how do you expect those of us who aren't as smart as you are about EPD's to ever become comfortable with their use if you talk about them all the time but then say that you're "not that high" on them? When you're bragging to your customers about your EPD's, I bet you leave out the part about "I am not that high" on them, don't you?

You know Willow, from time to time I hear txag and Frankie talk about the people who disagree with EPD's having a problem with them because of their own ignorance about the way they work and their intended purpose. They describe me perfectly! I'm willing to admit that my problem with them is due to my own ignorance. Breeders like you have a chance to help out guys like me. For some reason I don't feel very reassured by your constant use of them, followed by your "not that high" on them comment.
 

greenwillowherefords

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txag":2dqwdhsi said:
greenwillowherefords":2dqwdhsi said:
Whoa there! I no longer own the cow, hence I no longer have her pedigree complete with EPDs, so I can't remember the exact number but I remember that it was at least 20.

not to pick on you, but even if you don't own the cow, you can look her up on the AHA website if you know her name.

greenwillowherefords":2dqwdhsi said:
Txag, what I meant by "I don't know why," was that I don't know why after all those years the milk production changed that much on the daughters of the sire.

:? your confusion has me a little confused. i thought you said the individual cow's epd changed? now you say the daughters of the sire changed? either way, it was probably due to more information coming in on other relatives (in the bulls' case, maybe other daughters or sons' daughters and in the cow's case, maybe her daughters?)

Maternal Milk:
"The milking ability of a sire's daughters expressed in pounds of calf weaned. It predicts the difference in average weaning weight of sires' daughters' progeny due to milking ability."
That was based on Frankie's statements, which I know to be true, that one animal's performance is not going to affect its EPDs that much. Texan, I use the EPDs for the information of those who know about them like Txag and Frankie. That way they can make their own judgements about them. I wasn't really that irked at you, I was just trying to relate to you a bit. Frankie, I will look up the article on the MM and get back to you.
By the way, Txag, I thought that was Milk and Growth's definition.
 

greenwillowherefords

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Frankie":33p7c5cn said:
GWH said:
"Frankie, the folks at OSU just did a EPD confirming test involving Herefords that showed a strong relation between a high MM EPD and actual production."

I have not seen a report where they used Herefords, but have seen one they did using Angus bulls. In fact, it might have been part of the one I referenced, since that study included five states.
According to the Hereford World July issue, page 275, the study included both Herefords and Angus. It was conducted 1991-2000. The average milk producton difference was 237 lbs. between high and low EPD cows.
 

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greenwillowherefords":2flwensl said:
Texan, I use the EPDs for the information of those who know about them like Txag and Frankie.
Maybe you genius class of breeders should consider using PM's so that the rest of us morons won't get in your way. I think I'm going to try to get Macon to put in a Smarter Than Texan Only board so that I'll know not to go there and try to read and understand anything.

So.....? Is this a common feeling in the Whiteface Club? EPD's are to be used for inter-breeder communique only? Don't confuse the dumbass commercial producer who makes our little Whiteface world go 'round by purchasing our bulls? Boy, you guys could really have some fun with numbers then, huh?
 

greenwillowherefords

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Texan":op6gwfzr said:
greenwillowherefords":op6gwfzr said:
Texan, I use the EPDs for the information of those who know about them like Txag and Frankie.
Maybe you genius class of breeders should consider using PM's so that the rest of us morons won't get in your way. I think I'm going to try to get Macon to put in a Smarter Than Texan Only board so that I'll know not to go there and try to read and understand anything.

So.....? Is this a common feeling in the Whiteface Club? EPD's are to be used for inter-breeder communique only? Don't confuse the dumbass commercial producer who makes our little Whiteface world go 'round by purchasing our bulls? Boy, you guys could really have some fun with numbers then, huh?
I didn't say I knew that much about them! Accept my apologies, Texan, I really didn't mean to stir anything up like this, it just gravitates to me for some reason.
 

txag

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Texan":1pvpqx78 said:
So.....? Is this a common feeling in the Whiteface Club? EPD's are to be used for inter-breeder communique only? Don't confuse the dumbass commercial producer who makes our little Whiteface world go 'round by purchasing our bulls? Boy, you guys could really have some fun with numbers then, huh?

i'm not a member of any "Whiteface Club" so i'm not sure if it's a common feeling among them or not.

personally, it's not my feeling. epd's are a tool that can be utilized by both registered breeders and commercial breeders. the majority of our bull buyers are commercial cattleman. when they come to look, they get the same information a registered breeder would get......a printout with birth dates, birth weights, weaning weights, weaning dates, yearling weights (if the bulls are that old), sire, dam, and epd's.

i am more than happy to explain epd's to any customer unfamiliar with them.
 

Campground Cattle

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Texan":63vdlstw said:
greenwillowherefords":63vdlstw said:
Texan, I use the EPDs for the information of those who know about them like Txag and Frankie.
Maybe you genius class of breeders should consider using PM's so that the rest of us morons won't get in your way. I think I'm going to try to get Macon to put in a Smarter Than Texan Only board so that I'll know not to go there and try to read and understand anything.

So.....? Is this a common feeling in the Whiteface Club? EPD's are to be used for inter-breeder communique only? Don't confuse the dumbass commercial producer who makes our little Whiteface world go 'round by purchasing our bulls? Boy, you guys could really have some fun with numbers then, huh?

Tex I guess I am dumber than you I raise reg Herefords and don't even get epd's. The whiteface club doesn't include me in any reindeer games.So sign me up.
 

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