More on Fawn Calf Syndrome

[Oldtimer]

From the ABS site:

Unusual Calves Reported from Connealy ALL AROUND

May 4, 2009

Dr. Jonathan Beever of the University of Illinois has made us aware of two unusual calves that appear to be affected by the condition commonly known as Fawn Calf Syndrome (FCS). These calves have been parent verified to be sired by 29AN1693 Connealy ALL AROUND (15490811).

FCS is still being researched but indications from that research are that it is inherited as a simple recessive trait. Unlike AM and NH, this condition is not necessarily lethal. However, severely affected calves in extensive management conditions may have difficulties initially nursing without assistance and may be prone to mortality. This condition was first identified and investigated in Australia and research there indicates that the condition traces through the common ancestor Bon View Bando 598 to Premier Independence, the sire of his grandam, and possibly back to the dam of Independence.

Classification of the defect, breed association policies and a DNA test are all still under development at this time. ALL AROUND semen will be available only by special request through the ABS Beef Department.

ABS routinely investigates any abnormal calves reported to us that appear to be genetic in nature utilizing resources like Dr. David Steffen at the University of Nebraska, Dr. Beever and the respective breed association. Our policy has been and continues to be to label any bull that has been determined to be a carrier of a deleterious gene through either approved DNA testing or the identification of two or more calves that have been parent verified and confirmed through pathology to be affected by a known genetic defect. To date, we have had no other potential FCS calves reported to us by any other ABS sires.

When more is known about this condition and suspect pedigrees, ABS will communicate that information to our Representatives and customers. We encourage you to report any unusual calves to ABS, the respective breed association and to Drs. Beever or Steffen as referenced below on February 11th. They will assist and coordinate getting samples distributed appropriately for complete investigation.

This link contains information from the American Angus Association and a request for suspect calves to be submitted.

Reporting Fawn Calf Syndrome:

http://www.absglobal.com/media/files/be ... ng_FCS.pdf


http://www.absglobal.com/beef/beef-news/

 

[RD-Sam]

Just had another bull calf today out of an 878 heifer and all appears to be fine. Had another bull calf out of an 878 cow two days ago and all is well there. And I bought another bred heifer out of that 598 line a couple of days ago, I'm a glutten for punishment! :lol2:

 

[krenwic]

878 should be fine from what i'm hearing

 

[BARNSCOOP]

Okay, please humor me ,for my education tell me what this syndrome is and it's symptoms?

 

[Frankie]

Okay, please humor me ,for my education tell me what this syndrome is and it's symptoms?

FCS is much more difficult to spot than the last two defects the AAA has addressed because the calf usually lives and grows out. Most of us have a "dink" calf occasionally. Here's a link to the AAA site that discusses the FCS.

http://www.angus.org/reporting_FCS.pdf

 

[Frankie]

Thanks, OT, for the update. We've got Connection and Strategy semen in the tank. And we really like the one Strategy calf we've got on the ground this year. Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Oldtimer]

Thanks, OT, for the update. We've got Connection and Strategy semen in the tank. And we really like the one Strategy calf we've got on the ground this year. Time will tell, I guess.

Yep- it appears from what I've been reading and picking up that Dr. Beever has the area in the DNA and the abnormality identified- and that a test will be ready pretty soon- maybe in the next couple of weeks...
Then its just wait and see which of those sires end up clean or dirty to see if a guy has to test any of his own....

 

[robert]

because the calf usually lives and grows out.

I seriously question this assertion, in fact I think the opposite will be true, that these calves are pretty well helpless when first born and unless either the momma is particularly attentive / accomodating or the calf is born where it can be assisted to get nutrition early on then I believe the mortality rate is very high, and from the case I saw if it wasn't for the herd owners wife feeding the thing for 2 weeks it never would have survived. Phenotypically I think if you happened upon one of these calves dead you would think nothing too unusual, not the severe twisted spine associated with AM. I suspect that this defect is under reported rather than low incidence. Given the initial reports on meat quality of FCS affected calves it might be better to shoot the affected calf rather than let it grow out!

 

[Frankie]

because the calf usually lives and grows out.

I seriously question this assertion, in fact I think the opposite will be true, that these calves are pretty well helpless when first born and unless either the momma is particularly attentive / accomodating or the calf is born where it can be assisted to get nutrition early on then I believe the mortality rate is very high, and from the case I saw if it wasn't for the herd owners wife feeding the thing for 2 weeks it never would have survived. Phenotypically I think if you happened upon one of these calves dead you would think nothing too unusual, not the severe twisted spine associated with AM. I suspect that this defect is under reported rather than low incidence. Given the initial reports on meat quality of FCS affected calves it might be better to shoot the affected calf rather than let it grow out!

You can question all you want. I think that we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts. :roll:

Dr. Steffen's article at the link below says:

...FCS calves are normally born alive and most can walk, suckle and survive.The Birth weights are normal.....

http://www.angus.org/reporting_FCS.pdf

 

[Willow Springs]

You can question all you want. I think that we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts.

Problem is that with these genetic issues the "facts" have been swept under the rug or ignored for too long. I have gotten more valuable info that has proven accurate from the "gossip & rumours" than I have from the people who know the facts.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Frankie-

You wrote - [You can question all you want. I think that we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts.] - and I am curious as to WHY you assume that "...we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts".

Perhaps I am underinformed about 'robert' more than I should be! Could you enlighten me please?

DOC HARRIS

 

[robert]

I think Frankie is from the 'shoot the messenger' school of discussion, quick to decry anyone that dares to report on the existance of defects as rumor-mongers and worse but is in the unfortunate position that so far the 'rumor mongers' are batting 1.000 on the presence of previously denied defects and the lines they affect. :roll: :lol2:

 

[Frankie]

Frankie-

You wrote - [You can question all you want. I think that we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts.] - and I am curious as to WHY you assume that "...we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts".

Perhaps I am underinformed about 'robert' more than I should be! Could you enlighten me please?

DOC HARRIS

Sure, DOC. I'll post a link to the first thread that I remember robert posting in.

As you can see, I attached a link to Wehrmann's statement on how they planned to handle Curley Calf (AM). robert jumped in and claimed they said "they produced that only 1 out of 28 they retained is positive for AM? Doesn't anyone else have the least concern that the herd that bred and owned 9J9, 5H11, 8E8, 1B2, along with the addition of 2536, 1680 and Future Direction genetics has managed to retain only AM free daughters?"

Of course, there was nothing like that in the statement. And I wasn't the only poster to point that out to robert. IMO, he's a gossip and for the most part I ignore him, thinking that most people on the board understand that. But we do have new people joining pretty regular, so I think occasionally I'll call his hand.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53909&p=619068&hilit=wehrmann+statement#p619068

For what it's worth, I think gossips rank at the bottom end of the human race. Gossip and innuendo can do a lot of damage to individuals and breeding programs.

 

[Frankie]

I think Frankie is from the 'shoot the messenger' school of discussion, quick to decry anyone that dares to report on the existance of defects as rumor-mongers and worse but is in the unfortunate position that so far the 'rumor mongers' are batting 1.000 on the presence of previously denied defects and the lines they affect. :roll: :lol2:

I don't have any problem with a messenger of facts and truth. I do have a problem with gossip and rumor. Dr. Steffen is a respected researcher at Nebraska. Do you have a respected researcher ANYWHERE that disagrees with his statement? No. You have rumor and gossip.

 

[Oldtimer]

You can question all you want. I think that we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts.

Problem is that with these genetic issues the "facts" have been swept under the rug or ignored for too long. I have gotten more valuable info that has proven accurate from the "gossip & rumours" than I have from the people who know the facts.

Yep and whats becoming so very apparent as the facts continue to come out-- some of these supposedly credible industry/producer leaders-- and supposedly representatives of the breed/industry have either sold themselves out in this new GREED over ETHICS of the BIG CORPORATE "bigger , better, faster over all ethics/morals = BETTER" that has overtook this countrys culture.....

And just as the Wall Street and Investment folks endangered/sold out the trust and the futures of their investors-- these major bigger, better, faster "producers" ( I refuse to call them breeders) of what is appearing to be known defective genetics that were hid in the shadows of nontransparency- and association coverup (as it becomes apparent some of these defects were reported to them and the Industry/AAA 8-10 years ago- with no info or requests for input put out to the members)--- need to be smited mightedly- and the high horses they've been riding jerked from under their silver plated saddles....

 

[VanC]

OT- Are you saying that the AAA may have taken part in some kind of coverup?

 

[RD-Sam]

You can question all you want. I think that we all understand you're more interested in gossip and rumors than facts.

Problem is that with these genetic issues the "facts" have been swept under the rug or ignored for too long. I have gotten more valuable info that has proven accurate from the "gossip & rumours" than I have from the people who know the facts.

Yep and whats becoming so very apparent as the facts continue to come out-- some of these supposedly credible industry/producer leaders-- and supposedly representatives of the breed/industry have either sold themselves out in this new GREED over ETHICS of the BIG CORPORATE "bigger , better, faster over all ethics/morals = BETTER" that has overtook this countrys culture.....

And just as the Wall Street and Investment folks endangered/sold out the trust and the futures of their investors-- these major bigger, better, faster "producers" ( I refuse to call them breeders) of what is appearing to be known defective genetics that were hid in the shadows of nontransparency- and association coverup (as it becomes apparent some of these defects were reported to them and the Industry/AAA 8-10 years ago- with no info or requests for input put out to the members)--- need to be smited mightedly- and the high horses they've been riding jerked from under their silver plated saddles....

There are some "bigger, better, faster" breeders that weren't really affected and they have a good solid line. Nothing wrong with "Bigger, Better, Faster" if it is sound.

 

[robert]

I don't have any problem with a messenger of facts and truth. I do have a problem with gossip and rumor. Dr. Steffen is a respected researcher at Nebraska. Do you have a respected researcher ANYWHERE that disagrees with his statement? No. You have rumor and gossip.

OK some truth, but I don't think you can handle it.

2 years ago, a commercial customer of mine had 4 suspected snorter dwarf calves born in his herd sired by a bull we sold him and out of essentially straight black angus cows but from a polled Hereford base. Of these calves one was dead at birth, another euthanized and necropsied, another died and one is still alive at a tad over 2 years old. We reported all of this to the AAA, tissue samples sent to Dr. Steffan, DNA parentage confirmed on sire, dams and progeny and the sire was dna typed to his sire. Essentially we were fobbed off, met with very little in the way of cooperation in resolving this. Since then the admin at AAA has changed and with it a new attitude in dealing with genetic abnormalities and defects. Don and Bryce have a lot on their plate right now with AM, NH and FCS, not to mention the itty bitty calves, but we expect and we will continue to push for a resolution on this case and others. BTW, I happened to be judging a small show in PA last summer and lo and behold in one class there was what appeared to be a 18 month old dwarf, 800lbs, fat and displaying the same phenotype that we observed in my commercial customers herd. We got photos of him and the AAA has information on all of the above.

Secondly, in 2006 we observed what appeared to be a FCS case in another commercial customers herd, the cows were from registered Angus base but papers were not kept, the sire of the calf was a son of Bando 5175. Again, we got photographic evidence and tail hair samples, if you really want to know I can post a link to the photos. Again, AAA has been informed of this case and the reg number of the sire.

You can attempt to dismiss me as a gossip or rumor monger but I will tell you this, I have first hand experience with these genetic defects, and we will continue to aggressively seek the source of the defects. While a great many folks have been affected by AM and NH they were bloodlines we avoided for mainly functional reasons however we considered the information obtained from reliable fellow breeders about potential defects seriously and while several useful bulls appeared we continued to avoid them, luck or judgement, you decide.

As for other defects, the itty bitty deal is intriguing however I suspect that when we're all said and done the itty bitty's, long heads and snorters will have some common and predictable ancestry. But feel free to do your own research, the pedigrees are out there if you choose to actually educate yourself on these issues.

Finally, while you are entitled to think my question about Wehrmanns 'gossip' I have looked into their breeding program closely for many years, initially intrigued by their naming/numbering system that appealed to my nerdy side. From the late '80's until '93 or '94 they were intensely linebreeding 9J9, shortly after that they went to GAR for 2536. Today the only female lines that descend from 5H11 are from 9FB2 and an EXT flushmate to 3X25. They tested their entire herd and had a carrier rate of about 25%, within that they had only 1 out of 27 daughters of 2536 as carriers (3.8%). Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Oldtimer]

OT- Are you saying that the AAA may have taken part in some kind of coverup?

Well whats coming out is that the Australians, Australian Vets, and Australian Angus Association has been investigating some of these defects as far back as the 90's- as well as reporting it- and the suspected sires- to the AAA....

The rumors have also ran rampant about genetic defects in some of these sires ( Future Direction comes to mind first) for years- altho noone knew what genetic defect as they knew nothing of these.....Then 2-3 years ago some of the Australians started making public on the internet and chat sites these defects- altho still nothing came from AAA or the studs/producers....

Little of this really became public until a major Administrative change took place in the AAA...

When were you first informed by the AAA or a major stud/producer of even the possibility of these defects... :???:

Was there a coverup by the AAA, bull studs, producers - its up to you to decide :???:
But to me it sure smells of what has taken over much of this countries business/corporate world-- GREED over ETHICS and MORAL responsibilty...

 

[DOC HARRIS]

As the old saying goes - "WHAT GOES AROUND - COMES AROUND!"

It seems that the same old story of Greed, Selfishness, Immorality, Cheating, Lying, and Covetousness shows its ugly head sooner or later! When the Son's of Old Adam attempt to play GOD, the Powers that ultimately establish Truth and Honesty come into play, and misdeeds meet their match!

I have seen this kind of human frailty in other Industries, as well as Livestock, and invariably deceit looses - in one way - or usually - several. Unfortunately, these problems take longer to discern and settle than those on the loosing end would prefer.

BUT - in the long run, the deceivers and perpetrators will come up against a high, hard wall that they cannot climb over, or dig through. It seems, from reading these posts, that time is running out for some, and that it is time for others to turn their attention to IMPROVEMENT by education, understanding FACTS of Genetics, and application of that knowledge toward the regeneration of their affected herds, and look to the future. It may take some time, given the longer gestation periods and growth factors of cattle, but - the sooner you begin, the quicker you will get where you are going!

It is time to read the handwriting on the wall, face the facts, and stop with the accusations, finger-pointing, and cover-ups, and get on with breeding quality beef cattle in as pure a manner as it is possible under the circumstances. Truth is truth, wherever it can be found!

It appears that "rumor and gossip" is, in reality, "Truth and Facts!"

DOC HARRIS