Moderate sized cows

[CattleMan1920]

I saw it. I like that bull far more in his sale picture, but then again, Pearl is one of the most talented livestock photogs out there. She can make almost anything sale-able. The fact is, the structure on that bull (Elongate) would keep me from ever considering him, if he were on the open market (maybe he is?).
I am curious why you feel the need to keep posting other people's stock to convince any of us?!?! Your stock seems to do wonderfully for you...why do you care what all of us hobby farmers have to say?

I post mine and they are called morbidly obese.

The photo of SAV Elongate was for the crowd that thinks that SAV genetics cannot hold up to "real world conditions" which is absolutely wrong.

As for posting my own cattle, here is one we bred, that will be used this fall on a group of old cows that I don't want to fool with AI'ng, but still want a calf out of them.

http://bit.ly/2J2CT5z

I actually like that one quite a bit. Sound, tracks nice, good top line, overall nice structure. I like the condition he is in. I'm guessing he's a yearling based on lack of crest? My only fault on him would be that I find him a touch shallow in his fore rib, but that's really picky on a super looking young bull.

As for SAV, I used the same guy as they did for BSE's for a number of years. I am well aware of their program, and for various reasons, their stock just does not fit with my goals any more. In fact, I used one of the "bull of the year" bulls about 5 years ago. He didn't cross well enough on my Limi influenced females, and nobody even remembers who he was now. If the mood strikes, I may use one of their bulls again, but not today...

He is 9 months old in that video. BR and TT saw him in person.

 

[CattleMan1920]

James, I did not miss anything. We were talking about Moderate size cattle - not the bulls you like.

Jeanne,

Here is a moderate-sized cow on our operation. Born 3/17. She is on the smallish side of what I prefer. She has an SAV Raindance daughter on her side right now, and was recently bred to SAV America. She weighs about 1575 pounds.

http://bit.ly/2FR22yr

I like her a ton! Nice udder, nice structure and good working condition.

Thank you. She is my idea of moderate.

 

[T & B farms]

Jeanne,

Here is a moderate-sized cow on our operation. Born 3/17. She is on the smallish side of what I prefer. She has an SAV Raindance daughter on her side right now, and was recently bred to SAV America. She weighs about 1575 pounds.

http://bit.ly/2FR22yr

I like her a ton! Nice udder, nice structure and good working condition.

Thank you. She is my idea of moderate.

I really like that cow. Knock another 200lbs off of her and you will really have something

 

[CreekAngus]

I want to put in my two cents. Too often on CT, people post on here who have no historical reference at all. Posting a picture of Net Worth and stating GAR has nothing of like caliber, google Predestined......phenotype and quality numbers for his time. I see a lot of bloviating about SAV and how much their bulls sell for and how much money a Dam has made. GAR EXT 614 had over $5,000,000 in sales. GAR has gone in a complete different direction than SAV, going after carcass and one needs to understand the economics and geography of the cattle industry to know why. GAR sells the vast majority of their bulls to folks who live in three states, Kansas, Oklahoma and Colorado. Cattle operations in those states typically take their cattle to the rail, where making the grade on your animals, defines whether you're eating at McDonald's or Red Lobster. GAR has created a very good market for themselves with the commercial cattleman or woman. This industry is not one size fits all and we have great genetics all over this country....If SAV was the end all and be all, they wouldn't need Coleman, Jorgensen, SAF, Boyd or any other operation to improve their genetics. We each run the type of cattle we can or think we can market, I for one run them around 1800lbs, because I sell my bulls to folks who sell by the pound and run smaller framed cattle. I have little to no regard for Carcass EPD's, because my buyers don't care. And I got SAV Supercharger in my tank, ready to breed a couple of cows next week. Branded: Tonight the Gardiners will go to bed and I doubt any of them will have a restless thought wishing they were SAV.

 

[bball]

I saw it. I like that bull far more in his sale picture, but then again, Pearl is one of the most talented livestock photogs out there. She can make almost anything sale-able. The fact is, the structure on that bull (Elongate) would keep me from ever considering him, if he were on the open market (maybe he is?).
I am curious why you feel the need to keep posting other people's stock to convince any of us?!?! Your stock seems to do wonderfully for you...why do you care what all of us hobby farmers have to say?

I post mine and they are called morbidly obese.

The photo of SAV Elongate was for the crowd that thinks that SAV genetics cannot hold up to "real world conditions" which is absolutely wrong.

As for posting my own cattle, here is one we bred, that will be used this fall on a group of old cows that I don't want to fool with AI'ng, but still want a calf out of them.

http://bit.ly/2J2CT5z

I actually like that one quite a bit. Sound, tracks nice, good top line, overall nice structure. I like the condition he is in. I'm guessing he's a yearling based on lack of crest? My only fault on him would be that I find him a touch shallow in his fore rib, but that's really picky on a super looking young bull.

As for SAV, I used the same guy as they did for BSE's for a number of years. I am well aware of their program, and for various reasons, their stock just does not fit with my goals any more. In fact, I used one of the "bull of the year" bulls about 5 years ago. He didn't cross well enough on my Limi influenced females, and nobody even remembers who he was now. If the mood strikes, I may use one of their bulls again, but not today...

I have to confess Boot Jack, i really enjoy and appreciate when you or ALACOWMAN critique cattle. Learn something almost every time. Thanks to both of you.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

bball, I am humbled and flattered! I try to always give a honest and constructive critique. I confess, evaluating stock, be it cattle dogs, cattle, horses, goats, sheep, hogs, ect is a true joy for me. I have a unique background for someone my age. I have selected hundreds of bottle calves a month for a grow operation when I was still in high school. I was raised on some of the highest ranked Appys in the country for cattle and speed events. I have judged every thing you can while in FFA and 4H, including dairy products and carcass evaluation. I have shown and worked with cattle at every level of competition, including Herefords, Shorthorns, Chars, Chi's, Maines, ect. I've even shown Alpacas (don't judge me lol!). And now I work with breeders of every version to increase their profits, be it those building registered herds or those that are putting pot loads of prime fats on the grid. I enjoy putting my knowledge to use. Thanks again for your kind words!

 

[CattleMan1920]

I want to put in my two cents. Too often on CT, people post on here who have no historical reference at all. Posting a picture of Net Worth and stating GAR has nothing of like caliber, google Predestined......phenotype and quality numbers for his time. I see a lot of bloviating about SAV and how much their bulls sell for and how much money a Dam has made. GAR EXT 614 had over $5,000,000 in sales. GAR has gone in a complete different direction than SAV, going after carcass and one needs to understand the economics and geography of the cattle industry to know why. GAR sells the vast majority of their bulls to folks who live in three states, Kansas, Oklahoma and Colorado. Cattle operations in those states typically take their cattle to the rail, where making the grade on your animals, defines whether you're eating at McDonald's or Red Lobster. GAR has created a very good market for themselves with the commercial cattleman or woman. This industry is not one size fits all and we have great genetics all over this country....If SAV was the end all and be all, they wouldn't need Coleman, Jorgensen, SAF, Boyd or any other operation to improve their genetics. We each run the type of cattle we can or think we can market, I for one run them around 1800lbs, because I sell my bulls to folks who sell by the pound and run smaller framed cattle. I have little to no regard for Carcass EPD's, because my buyers don't care. And I got SAV Supercharger in my tank, ready to breed a couple of cows next week. Branded: Tonight the Gardiners will go to bed and I doubt any of them will have a restless thought wishing they were SAV.

Creek, my money is on SAV. Nothing against GAR, I know they have excellent cattle. They just don't have what I'm looking for. I almost gave GAR Quantum a try a while back, and then had second thoughts after a discussion with his owner. The bull is fine, he just did not answer my questions in a way that made me say "I must have this bull!"

I never thought that Gardiner would be losing

As for SAV Supercharger, you follow Kelly Schaff on Instagram, did you see his post on Supercharger tonight? That bull is mind blowing! Look at his pedigree closely and you will see why I prefer SAV. He knows cattle, he's like a master chef that understands the ingredients at another level. I'm not so naive to think that he doesn't use outside genetics, we all do, it's how he pairs them though that impresses me.

I also use Vintage, Hoover, Baldridge, Bubs, and even McCumber. I just find that time after time SAV tends to deliver masterpieces.

I will have to cross all my SAV progeny to something, so stay tuned....

 

[CreekAngus]

Branded: why do you have to cross SAV progeny? I'm using Supercharger not because of some video, though it may be impressive, I don't raise bulls to maturity and am more interested in the dam side of things, but for his maternal dna along with the fact his genetics are older. If we get daughters who are keepers we will dip our toes back into SAV and use Rainfall on them, for some linebreeding. Currently doing the same thing with War Party and Flat Top.

 

[Bcompton53]

BCompton53,

Maybe you have your beer goggles on right now, because here is a photo of one of his many daughters. Most people in their wildest dreams couldn't produce a dam like this, much less have her in production on their operation.

Net Worth daughters are superb, and if your cows would look the other way, that would make me question their maternal instincts.

[image]346[/image]

Notice I said MY cows. I don't care what YOUR cows do, because they are yours. Also, I don't know if we've been down this path before :roll: but I don't replant my pastures yearly, rotational graze, or fertilize heavily. So, no....I don't want the 2000 pound cows on my farm. So again, It's no different than me saying "I'll never drive a full size van", and you over there saying "I have 6 kids, therefore a full size van is perfect for everyone." No big deal, just lay off the "my way is the only way" thing, when your circumstances are not the norm/average.
Also, look at his numbers... I don't like pulling calves. Docility is top for me. My Dad broke his leg a couple years ago when a wild haired heifer ran him over. Now, after heavy culling, our herd is very very docile. I guess you know his legs are good, I mean they can carry that kind of weight. But hard calving, wild brained cows isn't what I want.

 

[CattleMan1920]

BCompton53,

Maybe you have your beer goggles on right now, because here is a photo of one of his many daughters. Most people in their wildest dreams couldn't produce a dam like this, much less have her in production on their operation.

Net Worth daughters are superb, and if your cows would look the other way, that would make me question their maternal instincts.

[image]346[/image]

Notice I said MY cows. I don't care what YOUR cows do, because they are yours. Also, I don't know if we've been down this path before :roll: but I don't replant my pastures yearly, rotational graze, or fertilize heavily. So, no....I don't want the 2000 pound cows on my farm. So again, It's no different than me saying "I'll never drive a full size van", and you over there saying "I have 6 kids, therefore a full size van is perfect for everyone." No big deal, just lay off the "my way is the only way" thing, when your circumstances are not the norm/average.
Also, look at his numbers... I don't like pulling calves. Docility is top for me. My Dad broke his leg a couple years ago when a wild haired heifer ran him over. Now, after heavy culling, our herd is very very docile. I guess you know his legs are good, I mean they can carry that kind of weight. But hard calving, wild brained cows isn't what I want.

I understand

 

[CreekAngus]

By my math a 2000 lb cow doesn't make calves that will qualify for CAB. I guess if Angus really wants to become the Simmental or Charolais of the '80's they will need to change their CAB requirements.

Most of the Seed Stock industry has recognized the issue of frame size and have started notching down frame size. I went through the top ten from 2018 for MH. Cowboy Up .3 Payweight .1 Resource -.2 Sure Fire .0 Black Granite .0 The current trend is to moderate cow frame. Out of the younger bulls coming to the forefront, the Baldridge bulls are all moderators, so are the SAV flush bulls. I think for the next couple of years the bulls of note will be Cowboy Up, Raindance, Rainfall and Playbook, who are all moderators.

 

[CattleMan1920]

By my math a 2000 lb cow doesn't make calves that will qualify for CAB. I guess if Angus really wants to become the Simmental or Charolais of the '80's they will need to change their CAB requirements.

Most of the Seed Stock industry has recognized the issue of frame size and have started notching down frame size. I went through the top ten from 2018 for MH. Cowboy Up .3 Payweight .1 Resource -.2 Sure Fire .0 Black Granite .0 The current trend is to moderate cow frame. Out of the younger bulls coming to the forefront, the Baldridge bulls are all moderators, so are the SAV flush bulls. I think for the next couple of years the bulls of note will be Cowboy Up, Raindance, Rainfall and Playbook, who are all moderators.

Moderating size is not an overly difficult thing to do, especially if you are AI'ng most of your herd. I could breed one of my 2000 pound cows to a GAR bull, or perhaps Comrade for example and I could almost bet that the progeny would drop in size. I've done it, and I know it works, my Hoover Dam daughter will probably never be as big as her dam or granddam.

If Raindance is at the forefront, I have a decent number of his daughters with a lot more on the way. I personally like the President females better as time goes on, but Raindance is nothing to sniff at. Also as for Baldridge, I don't have a lot of them, but I do really like the Colonel daughters so far, and will breeding one next month to SAV America 8018. I certainly will be using Colonel again in the future on other projects.

Here is the Colonel daughter we will be breeding soon.

http://bit.ly/2JuWawW

As for Cowboy Up, I would take President in a heartbeat over him. 4136 is a powerful motivator for me, especially since I focus on the females.

 

[Silver]

Always found the opposite to be true here. Super easy to get 2000 lb cows, cow size always wants to creep up. But we're not breeding Angus either so perhaps that's the difference. I also believe that the further north you go the bigger cattle want to get.

 

[gcreekrch]

Always found the opposite to be true here. Super easy to get 2000 lb cows, cow size always wants to creep up. But we're not breeding Angus either so perhaps that's the difference. I also believe that the further north you go the bigger cattle want to get.

The tendency for most to keep the biggest and supposed best heifer calves every fall is a big factor in frame creep.

We have been sorting the biggest 10% off to load on the truck and cows are still getting bigger than we prefer.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Also, if you pelvic measure & keep the biggest measurement, you start getting bigger cows.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Been there, done that, and now retain the below average sized heifers.

 

[Aaron]

Been there, done that, and now retain the below average sized heifers.

I have kept all the heifers (minus the dinks) for years and by the time they hit 6 years of age, there isn't a whole lot of difference. Maybe I have gone too far and the herd is too uniform? :shock:

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

I got one criteria that is non-negotiable. They must be able to fit in my Preifert SO4.

The cow I posted in frame size thread doesn't fit through the priefert palp cage. I have to AI her in the alley and back her out. :bang:

 

[CreekAngus]

Branded: How much you want to wager that Cowboy Up will have more registered progeny than Rainmaker, Rainfall, Raindance and America combined in 2019? You can like your Rainmaker all you want, but Cowboy Up appears to be the preferred bull by cattlemen all across the west.

 

[CreekAngus]

By my math a 2000 lb cow doesn't make calves that will qualify for CAB. I guess if Angus really wants to become the Simmental or Charolais of the '80's they will need to change their CAB requirements.

Most of the Seed Stock industry has recognized the issue of frame size and have started notching down frame size. I went through the top ten from 2018 for MH. Cowboy Up .3 Payweight .1 Resource -.2 Sure Fire .0 Black Granite .0 The current trend is to moderate cow frame. Out of the younger bulls coming to the forefront, the Baldridge bulls are all moderators, so are the SAV flush bulls. I think for the next couple of years the bulls of note will be Cowboy Up, Raindance, Rainfall and Playbook, who are all moderators.

Moderating size is not an overly difficult thing to do, especially if you are AI'ng most of your herd. I could breed one of my 2000 pound cows to a GAR bull, or perhaps Comrade for example and I could almost bet that the progeny would drop in size. I've done it, and I know it works, my Hoover Dam daughter will probably never be as big as her dam or granddam.

If Raindance is at the forefront, I have a decent number of his daughters with a lot more on the way. I personally like the President females better as time goes on, but Raindance is nothing to sniff at. Also as for Baldridge, I don't have a lot of them, but I do really like the Colonel daughters so far, and will breeding one next month to SAV America 8018. I certainly will be using Colonel again in the future on other projects.

Here is the Colonel daughter we will be breeding soon.

http://bit.ly/2JuWawW

As for Cowboy Up, I would take President in a heartbeat over him. 4136 is a powerful motivator for me, especially since I focus on the females.

Colonel isn't a moderator, only the Weigh Up flush brothers are....Bonc, 38 and Compass. I don't know how every post or comment somehow ends up being about Branded's cows. Ok cool, you can moderate, but you're not. We get it James you like big cows and just can't lie, but most of the seed stock industry is moderating, there is nothing wrong with being a contrarian, especially if your market needs it. What I like about the industry right now is you don't have the in fighting like there was 10 to 15 years ago, size was a huge topic then. Now we got Jindra and Mohnen doing their thing, Coleman and OCC theirs and a whole bunch of great ranches doing theirs. If want to breed up I could get a Branded or Jindra, if I want to scale'em down I can get me some Duff. There are a lot of great genetics available, regardless of breed.