Moderate Frame

[Rmc]

Some days I wonder if certain members of this board aren't on the packers payroll. If it isn't huge framed black hided cattle the negative comments begin. "Not worth raising " "can't make money on that type." "Will take a beating at the sale barn" "sell and get huge framed black hided ""that's not what the buyers want "

 

[simme]

I've never seen anyone "attacked" for selling freezer beef.

Agree with that. Just be cautious before speaking anything positive about epd's or heterosis.

But everyone is free to have their own opinions and beliefs and should feel the same about those with alternate facts. Offering information and explanation is not an attack, but sometimes may be interpreted as such, I guess.

 

[Son of Butch]

Some days I wonder if certain members of this board aren't on the packers payroll.

I am, as is everyone whose cattle are bought by a packer.

 

[Son of Butch]

I've never seen anyone "attacked" for selling freezer beef.

I know a guy who was almost strangled by a co-worker for selling him a 1/2 that was so low quality the guy went back to buying his meat at Wal-Mart with his freezer nearly full of crap quality beef.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Some days I wonder if certain members of this board aren't on the packers payroll. If it isn't huge framed black hided cattle the negative comments begin. "Not worth raising " "can't make money on that type." "Will take a beating at the sale barn" "sell and get huge framed black hided ""that's not what the buyers want "

You nailed it RMC. Actually using CT's own criteria, black hided cattle should only be allowed under a political, religious , controversial
heading. I fail to understand how anyone thinks they can take a brain dead red and white holstein (Simmental) (undisputedly the dumbest cow on four legs) infuse it with at least 4 generations of black to get the white out and try to convince us it is the best thing since sliced bread.
The blackening of the American cattle herd would be justifiable for one of the largest class action suits in U S history.

 

[elkwc]

I've stated many times no one frame size or weight works best in every environment, management program or forage. Each breeder has to find what works best for them and what will return the most profit per acre.
The word moderate means something different to each breeder, When I see it used I have no idea what frame size or weight they are talking about. Many breeders never measure their cattle and have no idea what frame size they are.
We prefer a cow around a 6.0 frame efficient cow that will weigh 1,400-1,500 lbs. This size of cow does well in our environment and on our forage types. We desire a cow with good length, well muscled and good feet and legs along with good teats and udders. Our cows need to do well in our low input program and on low nutrient forages. A cow needs to be a high volume type of cow. Low volume short cows don't work for us. They require more inputs than our average sized cows.A recent MARC study shows the average weight of an Angus cow is 1,400 lbs. Many believe that is a big cow.
Many think all small cows are more efficient. Recent studies and research have found there is little if any correlation between frame size, weight and being efficient. In fact some studies have shown a breeder can reduce maintenance costs by 25% by selecting for efficient cattle, increase stocking rates and maintain frame size and weight. I feel that selecting for efficient cattle will be very important with higher feed costs.
Here our market docks anything less than a 5.5 frame heavily, Also we have found the smaller lighter cows will usually wean smaller calves. The same with low BW calves. On mature cows we desire a BW of 80-90 lbs. These calves are more vigorous and wean heavier.
Whether buying a bull or buying semen it is hard to find a bull over a 6.0 frame. And when buying a bull and you find one here the bidding war begins.The bulls under a 5.5 frame sell cheaper.
Again no one size, weight or type works best everywhere. We raise what works best for us in our market, environment and on our forages.I often wonder if those who claim the small cattle those under a 5.0 frame have e eroded a pen of their cattle out.

 

[3BMorne]

Very interesting discussion here so far, agree with Ken that in Aus it seems like you take a knock on moderate framed cattle at the sale yard, even if they're better presenting than their larger framed compatriots.

I'd love to get people's opinion on mature cow weight and frame score. It seems like in the eternal hunt for more growth, MCW continues to grow. A lot of bulls in AI catalogues that are listed as frame score 6or so as yearlings, seem to be walking around at 2500 lb monsters at 3+ years old, with a frame score that is no longer a 6, but isn't advertised as such.

 

[faster horses]

I've stated many times no one frame size or weight works best in every environment, management program or forage. Each breeder has to find what works best for them and what will return the most profit per acre.
The word moderate means something different to each breeder, When I see it used I have no idea what frame size or weight they are talking about. Many breeders never measure their cattle and have no idea what frame size they are.
We prefer a cow around a 6.0 frame efficient cow that will weigh 1,400-1,500 lbs. This size of cow does well in our environment and on our forage types. We desire a cow with good length, well muscled and good feet and legs along with good teats and udders. Our cows need to do well in our low input program and on low nutrient forages. A cow needs to be a high volume type of cow. Low volume short cows don't work for us. They require more inputs than our average sized cows.A recent MARC study shows the average weight of an Angus cow is 1,400 lbs. Many believe that is a big cow.
Many think all small cows are more efficient. Recent studies and research have found there is little if any correlation between frame size, weight and being efficient. In fact some studies have shown a breeder can reduce maintenance costs by 25% by selecting for efficient cattle, increase stocking rates and maintain frame size and weight. I feel that selecting for efficient cattle will be very important with higher feed costs.
Here our market docks anything less than a 5.5 frame heavily, Also we have found the smaller lighter cows will usually wean smaller calves. The same with low BW calves. On mature cows we desire a BW of 80-90 lbs. These calves are more vigorous and wean heavier.
Whether buying a bull or buying semen it is hard to find a bull over a 6.0 frame. And when buying a bull and you find one here the bidding war begins.The bulls under a 5.5 frame sell cheaper.
Again no one size, weight or type works best everywhere. We raise what works best for us in our market, environment and on our forages.I often wonder if those who claim the small cattle those under a 5.0 frame have e eroded a pen of their cattle out.

I have a couple of questions. I am merely curious.
1. At what age are you talking 6.0 frame on a bull?
2. When are you weighing your cows to know they weigh 1400-1500#?

We had a scale and I can tell you that cows weigh 100# more at home than they do at
a sale. Your cows could be 1500-1600# if you are using sale day weight.
In our country 1200-300# cows fit the environment well. There aren't many that size by looking at the sale/weight reports. Most cows are larger than that.
That size cow has no
problem weaning a 600+# calf at 205 days of age. I think producers forget to give their
calves a 205 day weight when they are talking weaning weights. Age has a lot to do with
WW. It's gain per day of age that tells the true story.

It is my belief that when stacking things, like frame score, weaning weight, etc. a person is heading for trouble. It is easier to get where you want to be than it is to stay there.

 

[Travlr]

All I hear is we are supposed to use moderate frame but they come out being short and not selling well. Who is wanting these moderate frame (,short) calves

In areas with a lot of easy grass cover they are known as easy keepers. They mature earlier and fatten quicker. There is no real downside except the present industry is geared toward 1300# or more finished weight.

 

[kenny thomas]

In areas with a lot of easy grass cover they are known as easy keepers. They mature earlier and fatten quicker. There is no real downside except the present industry is geared toward 1300# or more finished weight.

The downside is that they will discount smaller weights at finished.

 

[faster horses]

The downside is that they will discount smaller weights at finished.

There is a direct correlation between mature cow size and steer finishing size.
At least that is what I have been told. For years.

 

[kenny thomas]

There is a direct correlation between mature cow size and steer finishing size.
At least that is what I have been told. For years.

I would agree to a point. I believe a 5.5 frame cow bred to a 6.5 frame bull the calf will finish bigger than if bred to a 5 frame bull.

 

[Travlr]

The downside is that they will discount smaller weights at finished.

 

[3BMorne]

There is a direct correlation between mature cow size and steer finishing size.
At least that is what I have been told. For years.

There's also a direct correlation between mature cow size and amount of feed to keep her.

In our area I'm seeing lots of 1200-1300lb steers at 18months at the sale yards. Makes more sense to me to sell at 900-1000 at 12 months and convert that extra 6months of feeding steers into more cows on the ground

 

[elkwc]

I have a couple of questions. I am merely curious.
1. At what age are you talking 6.0 frame on a bull?
2. When are you weighing your cows to know they weigh 1400-1500#?

We had a scale and I can tell you that cows weigh 100# more at home than they do at
a sale. Your cows could be 1500-1600# if you are using sale day weight.
In our country 1200-300# cows fit the environment well. There aren't many that size by looking at the sale/weight reports. Most cows are larger than that.
That size cow has no
problem weaning a 600+# calf at 205 days of age. I think producers forget to give their
calves a 205 day weight when they are talking weaning weights. Age has a lot to do with
WW. It's gain per day of age that tells the true story.

It is my belief that when stacking things, like frame score, weaning weight, etc. a person is heading for trouble. It is easier to get where you want to be than it is to stay there.

I try too measure our bulls every year until they are mature. Some bulls mature later and sometimes that is because of management. So I take it all into consideration.
We're your scales on the farm tested and calibrated every year? I have found through the years many farm scales are good for in herd comparisons but not real accurate. Due to using some of the more current hot sires and also a Gelbveigh influenced bull we have some smaller cows so know the weights well. Also if you take your cattle to the sell 1-2 days before the sale you will get your fill back. I can assure you our weights are very close.