Dixieangus
Well-known member
what type of purina mineral should i feed to 200lb calves that are on ryegrass and 14% pellets
mineral
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backhoeboogie
Well-known member
What's in the pellets? If they have everything, maybe none.
The feed I was using for the lightweights I bought in '09 had everything in it. Seems like I had some cheap range mineral version already out anyway. They didn't mess with it much.
The feed I was using for the lightweights I bought in '09 had everything in it. Seems like I had some cheap range mineral version already out anyway. They didn't mess with it much.
novaman
Well-known member
Don't worry about the mineral. Buy a higher protein feed as that will do them more good than adding minerals.
TexasBred
Well-known member
I'm assuming that since you mentioned Purina mineral then the 14% pellets are also Purina. Check the tag. It should be a balanced ration but if you want to put out some mineral I'd use the Purina All Season AV4.Dixieangus":3rsezdh9 said:
dcara
Well-known member
I'm not sure they need any protein supplement right now. Rye grass this time of year should be high enough in protein to be giving them the squirts. You can guage how much protein a calf or cow is getting by looking at their piles. Runny means to much protein. There have been many artilces with pics posted here over the years that will show you what you need to know.
TexasBred
Well-known member
Any fresh lush grass will give a calf "squirts". It's 90% water with almost no dry matter. But if it was fertilized it should be high in protein as well. Every loose cow splatter is not an indication of excessive protein. Depends on what's being consumed as well.dcara":3s77gwvc said:
fazendeiro
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Have any of you used the Morales Feed 310, 14%, mineral lick? They deliver is liquid form and in large tubs. The cows simply drink, sip (can cows sip?), or lick it. If so, what do you think of it? Did it perform better than cubes?
TexasBred
Well-known member
fazendeiro":3hy4sosa said:
Never heard of it around here.
I am not trying to start a fight or be rude but where would I have to live to have Morales 310 delivered to my cattle?fazendeiro":j4gl8ppa said:
Around Here, Where is around here? Many times folks talk about products they use in their areas. It's hard to reply if we don't know where "Around here is".
dcara
Well-known member
TexasBred":1in1kir8 said:
"90%" sounds like a wild A$$ guess, and an uninformed guess at that. The water content is higher in "lush" grass but the reason they get the squirts is because their plane of nutrition is much higher. You can actually give them the squirts in the winter with hay if you also feed them enough protein. If there was "almost no dry matter" they would not be able to eat enough to get the nutrition they need to survive since water does not contain the needed nutrients. I can't believe you ever actually measured anything that high. If you did can you tell me what measurement method you used and specifically what forage you measured, the stage of growth, time of day and year when you measured it so I can try to repeat your measurement? The highest spring time, boot stage rye grass moisture content I ever measured was less than 60%. The only thing in any of the feed tables I looked at that was higher was silage, but then its not forage.
I tried to find the previous article I referenced that had the pictures but A&M has moved it. I'll post it again if/when they get back to me. In the mean time here's a link to an article that discusses the same thing which you might consider reading. The paragraph "Fecal consistancy" at the bottom of the 3rd page explains what I said.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewc ... ysis+of%22
TexasBred
Well-known member
Easy...obtain a represetative sample of the grass...it was native grass, early spring "flush". Place sample in sample bag supplied by lab and mail to Dairy One Lab in Ithaca, NY. 90% is higher than normal as 85% is more typical but have had a number of tests results higher than 85%. If you don't want to mail it to a lab for a complet NIR test you can weigh out a precise amount, microwave it and the weigh it again. This will allow you to determine moisture level with a margin of error of +/- 4-5%.
And yes they have to consume a huge amount to have it add up to very much dry matter. Similar to feeding corn silage, except silage typically tests between 65 and 72% moisture. Ever see a cow fed on silage? Beautiful perfect "splat" as you call it and protein on a dry matter basis is usually less than 9%. Have seen a lot of coastal bermude, rye and oats cut and ensiled in addition to corn and yes the moisture on it is high enough that it will run out of the bunkers like a water faucet after it's set for a while.
And yes they have to consume a huge amount to have it add up to very much dry matter. Similar to feeding corn silage, except silage typically tests between 65 and 72% moisture. Ever see a cow fed on silage? Beautiful perfect "splat" as you call it and protein on a dry matter basis is usually less than 9%. Have seen a lot of coastal bermude, rye and oats cut and ensiled in addition to corn and yes the moisture on it is high enough that it will run out of the bunkers like a water faucet after it's set for a while.
dcara
Well-known member
I found the research paper with pics I mentioned previously. As with the A&M paper I provided a link to, this paper again supports my original statement regarding manure consistency being a good indicator of the plane of nutrition. Apparently additional research has been done because now the consistency is related to specific ranges of CP and TDN. If you are still not convinced of this concept you might want to submit your research data to A&M and the Nobel Foundation and discuss it with them. Heres the link to the paper with pics
http://www.noble.org/ag/forage/bsdegree/index.htm
As often happens, this discussion has changed focus somewhat. In this case the focus has changed from nutritional requirements to a debate on the moisture content in the forage. I stand by original statement that protein supplement right now may not be required due to the high plane of nutrition in the spring forage which can be evidenced by the consistency of their manure. A position supported by current documented research from multiple sources. About the only thing I supplement in the spring (given my forage base) is a high magnesium mineral to prevent possible Grass Tetany.
Regarding your reference to +/-4.5% accuracy.
I use the Microwave dry down method when I am haying to determine when to bail. I like to bail between 15-17% moisture. Careful measurement/processing technique can easily produce measurements with repeatable 1% accuracy. Accuracy is simply a function of both the resolution of the measurement equipment and measurement process control. To check these 2 variable you can take a small plastic vessel (such as a large plastic spoon), weigh it 3-4 times. If you don't get a readings within 1% of each other then you have a measurement problem. If you can get repeatable measurements then place water in it, weigh it again, put it in the microwave to boil the water out and weigh it again. If you don't get with in 1% of the original empty spoon measurement then you have some kind of process problem. I know this seems simple and obvious but you would be suprised how often the simple and obvious things can bite you in the rear.
http://www.noble.org/ag/forage/bsdegree/index.htm
As often happens, this discussion has changed focus somewhat. In this case the focus has changed from nutritional requirements to a debate on the moisture content in the forage. I stand by original statement that protein supplement right now may not be required due to the high plane of nutrition in the spring forage which can be evidenced by the consistency of their manure. A position supported by current documented research from multiple sources. About the only thing I supplement in the spring (given my forage base) is a high magnesium mineral to prevent possible Grass Tetany.
Regarding your reference to +/-4.5% accuracy.
I use the Microwave dry down method when I am haying to determine when to bail. I like to bail between 15-17% moisture. Careful measurement/processing technique can easily produce measurements with repeatable 1% accuracy. Accuracy is simply a function of both the resolution of the measurement equipment and measurement process control. To check these 2 variable you can take a small plastic vessel (such as a large plastic spoon), weigh it 3-4 times. If you don't get a readings within 1% of each other then you have a measurement problem. If you can get repeatable measurements then place water in it, weigh it again, put it in the microwave to boil the water out and weigh it again. If you don't get with in 1% of the original empty spoon measurement then you have some kind of process problem. I know this seems simple and obvious but you would be suprised how often the simple and obvious things can bite you in the rear.
TexasBred
Well-known member
dcara":3pyy94cr said:
dc, I never said excess protein would not affect the consistency of manure...only that it was not the only factor in determining manure consistency. and moisture was also often a cause especially when grazing high moisture lush green grass as you yourself use. I do appreciate your engineering approach to a nutritional question. Very impressive. But for moisture in hay a simple moisture tester probe works well enough for me. Calculate the protein intake of one of your cattle eating nice lush fertilized grass...we'll reduce it to 80% moisture for you. If she eats 40 lbs. per day she gets 8 pounds of dry matter. Even if the grass is 25% crude protein on a dry matter basis her protein intake is only 2 lbs. of pure protein per head per day. Hardly more than she would get from eating dry hay. But consider that the grass is much more digestible, contains almost no fiber in any form and from 80 to 90% water and we have thin manure. TDN is definitely is a factor, so we've established already that it is not the amount of crude protein "alone" (This is not in conflict with your link). There are other factors. As for my research...I submitted to the department heads at Aggieland before the author of your link was born. ;-) Peace brother. ;-)
dcara
Well-known member
";-) Peace brother. ;-)" Ditto
What probe tester do you use. Cooking hay is a pain in the rear but I have never really trusted the testers.
I'm glad you brought up the weight issue also. With regard to water intake the case you mentioned would also result in about 4.5 gal of water intake from the forage. depending on the animal this could represent 10-20% (more or less) of her daily water intake assuming something like a 75deg average temperature in April in Texas. Just an interesting note I thought.
A few years ago I wrote/developed a feed calculator in the form of a spreadsheet that would calculate the amount and types of various feeds, hays and mixes for a given bovine to grow, and/or change BCS, and/or milk a calf, etc for various feeds. It is all based on Mega Cals required by the bovine for various conditions which I calculated from various TDN/CP tables. For example. A 1000lb cow maintaining a BCS of 5 with no calf requires 18.2 Mcals and 1.6 lbs of protien per day. That same cow with a 5 month calf requires 23 Mcals and 1.9 lbs protien/day. If you also wanted that same cow to go from a BCS of 5 to 6 in 60 days while milking a 5 month calf (7 months at the end of 60days) she would require 25.8 Mcals and 1.9lbs CP/day. I also sent it to A&M after talking with a prof there in the hopes that a student could proof it for me for extra credit. Never heard anything. Still, I have found it to be reasonably accurate useful for feed planning.
What probe tester do you use. Cooking hay is a pain in the rear but I have never really trusted the testers.
I'm glad you brought up the weight issue also. With regard to water intake the case you mentioned would also result in about 4.5 gal of water intake from the forage. depending on the animal this could represent 10-20% (more or less) of her daily water intake assuming something like a 75deg average temperature in April in Texas. Just an interesting note I thought.
A few years ago I wrote/developed a feed calculator in the form of a spreadsheet that would calculate the amount and types of various feeds, hays and mixes for a given bovine to grow, and/or change BCS, and/or milk a calf, etc for various feeds. It is all based on Mega Cals required by the bovine for various conditions which I calculated from various TDN/CP tables. For example. A 1000lb cow maintaining a BCS of 5 with no calf requires 18.2 Mcals and 1.6 lbs of protien per day. That same cow with a 5 month calf requires 23 Mcals and 1.9 lbs protien/day. If you also wanted that same cow to go from a BCS of 5 to 6 in 60 days while milking a 5 month calf (7 months at the end of 60days) she would require 25.8 Mcals and 1.9lbs CP/day. I also sent it to A&M after talking with a prof there in the hopes that a student could proof it for me for extra credit. Never heard anything. Still, I have found it to be reasonably accurate useful for feed planning.
TexasBred
Well-known member
dc my old meter is a Delmhorst brand. Can't even think of the model right now but have had it for a number of years. Not "exact" but close enough for my purposes. Only has an 18 inch probe and really wish it was at least 24 or even 30. Much better than cooking. Keeps your popcorn from tasting like coastal hay. Really handy when buying hay based on actual weight and moisture. ;-) Have never done any of the calculations you mention for beef cattle but Net energy for lactation, maintenance and production is extremely critical in dairy cattle as we put such heavy demands on her system especially in Texas where we have no ideal dairy environments. Energy actually becomes more critical than protein.
dcara
Well-known member
TexasBred":35676rge said:
And of course the occasional hay fire in the microwave. I hate it when that happens. Fortunately no real damage yet. But it always gets the wife excited.
Dixieangus":2xkpftvn said:
Personally, I would read the label of any purina product very carefully because they tend to use way more salt than I prefer. Salt acts as a limiter, and I don't see the point of feeding mineral that is 45-50% salt because it will not meet the needs of my animals. Just a suggestion.
TexasBred
Well-known member
msscamp":3bxp7ufs said:
Label is the key word. It has to have no more nor no less than what is guaranteed. Salt can also be used as an enticement to consume mineral if you have no other source of salt available. In most good mineral formulations there is not room in the formula for an inclusion rate of 50% without restricting other high inclusion items such as phosphorus and calcium.
