Mineral

[Hippie Rancher]

There is no way a cow would take in enough salt to be a limiter in this sense. However, it is used as an attractant because a cow will seek out sodium if she is lacking it. The goal is to get the cow to consume the mineral by having her consume sodium.

Yeah I got that - it was confusingly worded by saying you couldn't put enough rather than just saying you had to use some as an attractant.

Personally I would rather have my cows take in extra mineral then be shorted.

Well there are some micro nutrients you might not want them to OD on, but yeah in general they will excrete the extra and that is good for the soil, but some things are expensive and you don't need or want them to overeat - that is why so many include the salt as a LIMITER.

 

[rk]

There is no way a cow would take in enough salt to be a limiter in this sense. However, it is used as an attractant because a cow will seek out sodium if she is lacking it. The goal is to get the cow to consume the mineral by having her consume sodium.

Yeah I got that - it was confusingly worded by saying you couldn't put enough rather than just saying you had to use some as an attractant.

Personally I would rather have my cows take in extra mineral then be shorted.

Well there are some micro nutrients you might not want them to OD on, but yeah in general they will excrete the extra and that is good for the soil, but some things are expensive and you don't need or want them to overeat - that is why so many include the salt as a LIMITER.

Maybe it's a difference in how it's done in Arizona, but I don't know of any quality mineral that uses salt as a limiter around here.
I also agree that I'd rather see extra consumption than not enough.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

You're missing the concept.....you cannot put enough salt into 3-4 ounces of mineral to limit consumption.

No I'm not missing the concept. You keep saying you cannot do something you do not even want to do. Change what you are saying to "I have to put salt in the mix to get them to eat it" - I got it ok? You keep saying you can't put enough in there to limit consumption, but you don't even WANT to limit intake - you are trying to get them to eat it in the first place.

Most components of minerals by themselves are not palatable. Phosphorus, for example, is bitter. Salt, and other palatability enhancers are generally used, to encourage consumption of the important minerals that would not be consumed by themselves.

Again, I don't have that much experience here other than knowing most around here use salt as a LIMITER, because we just don't have much deficiency, but I never had a problem with them not wanting bone meal when it was allowed for the phosphorus. Have not tried the mined versions. Maybe it needs salt

 

[rk]

You're missing the concept.....you cannot put enough salt into 3-4 ounces of mineral to limit consumption.

No I'm not missing the concept. You keep saying you cannot do something you do not even want to do. Change what you are saying to "I have to put salt in the mix to get them to eat it" - I got it ok? You keep saying you can't put enough in there to limit consumption, but you don't even WANT to limit intake - you are trying to get them to eat it in the first place.

Most components of minerals by themselves are not palatable. Phosphorus, for example, is bitter. Salt, and other palatability enhancers are generally used, to encourage consumption of the important minerals that would not be consumed by themselves.

Again, I don't have that much experience here other than knowing most around here use salt as a LIMITER, because we just don't have much deficiency, but I never had a problem with them not wanting bone meal when it was allowed for the phosphorus. Have not tried the mined versions. Maybe it needs salt

Look.....at certain levels of inclusion, salt will encourage intake. However, a cow will eventually back away and stop consuming when she's had enough salt. In other words, at low levels, it increases intake. At high levels, it slows/stops intake. What I'm saying is that you cannot formulate enough salt in to limit intake if you want 3-4 ounces of total mineral intake.
If you want them to eat 3-4 lbs of a salt-controlled feed, formulate salt at about 30% +/-. They'll consume 3-4 lbs, getting about 1 lb total salt in the process which is usually enough salt intake to slow/stop consumption of the feed.
3-4 ounces of mineral cannot contain enough salt to limit consumption in this way.

 

[dcara]

Here's a quote from the University of Georgia followed by a link to the paper it is from

Controlling intake at the desired level is very challenging. Mineral intake normally fluctuates. Monitor mineral intake for several weeks prior to implementing management practices to alter mineral intake. If mineral intake is too high or low, move the mineral feeder either closer or farther away from the water source and loafing areas. When cattle are over-consuming mineral, salt is often added to reduce the amount of minerals the cattle are eating. Salt level has a significant impact on mineral intake and is easily changed to control intake. However, you must account for the additional salt when determining the correct intake. For example, if a mineral with a recommended feeding rate of 4 ounces per day is mixed in a 50:50 ratio with plain white salt, the cattle should consume 8 ounces per day. This would supply the cattle with the targeted amount of 4 ounces of mineral plus 4 ounces of added salt. When under-consumption is a problem, try adding dried molasses or possibly change brands to a more palatable mineral. In addition, keep in mind that calves can consume significant amounts of mineral and this should be considered before decreasing the feeding level.

If mineral intake is inadequate, try adding a palatable feedstuff to the mix. Feeds such as cottonseed meal, soybean meal, dry molasses and distillers grains can improve mineral intake. Moving the mineral feeder closer to the water source can improve intake. In addition, changing mineral brands will sometimes provide a mineral that is more palatable.

Regular monitoring of mineral consumption by keeping a record of animal numbers and feeding amounts is needed to combat a mineral intake problem.

http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B895/B895.htm

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Thanks dcara, that is pretty much the way I always understood it.

 

[kyblockhead]

There are certainly some variations region by region on the mineral content of the forages that are fed which affects mineral intake. That should be taken into account when the mineral is formulated. Twenty years ago there was a lot of conversation and some trialwork about free choicing different mineral sources so cattle could eat what they needed. That doesn't work. Cattle are pretty much like kids, they'll eat what they like and not necessarily what they need. The only specific nutrients that cattle specifically crave seem to be salt, phosphorus and protein. Obviously, thirsty cows crave water and hungry cows crave some sort of feed. Salt is used as both an attractant as well as a limiter. There is a lot of difference in palatability among minerals due to a number of factors: (1) anything used to control dustiness? (2) palatability enhancers such as flavor packets, carriers, etcs. (3) nutrient profile (4) medications. Magnesium tends to be bitter but phosphorus source such as dicalcium phosphate doesn't seem to bother intake. Salt is used to limit intake in most mineral formulations. This has been proven to work especially when you talk about free choice medicated formulations which must be proven to the FDA or EPA to give regular consistent intake. If a 4 oz Rumensin mineral provides 180 mg of Rumensin/head/day they will not approve a formulation that allows 6 oz daily intake regularly. Mineral generally is not as palatable as feedstuffs so the level of salt doesn't have to be as high to make an impact on intake. There seems to be a lot of marketing theories cast about in the marketplace these days like cattle aren't smart enough to know what they should use so one company color codes their mineral based on the time of year. Big problem with that is mineral should be driven by production needs not the time of the year. Another major brand makes their mineral particle size large enough that it won't get hard in the mineral feeder and isn't dusty but the larger particle size cannot be as available in the rumen. Find a company that makes palatable mineral and can offer a product that fits your needs. Most herds that have 100 head (possibly less) are large enough to have a product made specifically for them not just an off the shelf product.

 

[loomis]

Salt is added to control consumption, and you can get mineral without it added salt is verry inexpensive around 80 to 90 bucks a ton bagged if you do the math when you buy mineral with salt you are buying some high proced salt. I have always used a no salt mineral (J cross or McNess) then ad the salt in the trough to control consumption.

Are you talking about Furst McNess mineral and if so how much cheaper is the mineral with no salt?

Yes First McNess and the product num of the mineral I use is 600412 it is about $600.00 a ton today.

 

[rk]

Some more thoughts on this one......cattle do seem to crave salt..to an extent. I've more often seen salt use to encourage consumption of mineral rather than limit it. They also will seek phosphorus when they are short, but consumption will go down when a higher phos mineral is offered.
To each his own, I guess, but I've never seen any kind of a well-formulated mineral on a that needs salt added to it on a regular basis to lower consumption. I have seen situations where cattle consume quite a bit more than recommended (usually 3-4 oz). This can result from being mineral deficient, possibly from only having a mineral that is unpalatable, or no mineral at all. Offer a palatable mineral in this situation and I've seen cows hit it pretty hard, but they'll eventually slow down to an appropriate consumption, usually within about 2-4 weeks. It seems like offering a mineral of low palatability is sometimes like offering no mineral at all. I've also seen high mineral consumption when grass is extremely lush.....so lush cows are simply "hungry" for dry matter. Offer a bale of hay and mineral consumtion will go down.
Some may add salt to slow consumption, which is fine if that's what they want, I guess. I do firmly believe low/no consumption is much bigger problem than otherwise and anything that can encourage consumption is a positive, even at the expense of temporary overconsumption.

 

[blk mule]

Hey, folk i`m in to this mineral discussion, i`m learning new material carry on. Good Post !!

blk mule

 

[LFF]

Vita Ferm concept aid has no salt , but you do have to hand feed it or mix it with feed to keep cattle from over eating.

 

[Arkieman]

Here's a scenario that I don't understand. I feed free choice bermuda hay. I also feed a Cottonseed Meal/Rice bran ration.

Hay 75%
Bran 20%
CSM 5%

Using the OSU Ration Calculator, here is the detail

Ration Required Comment
TDN% 52.52
Fat 4.65
Fiber 25.96
Protein % 12.44 10.50 Adequate
Potassium% 1.62 .65 Toxic
Calcium% .38 .17 Adequate
Phosphorus% .53 .16 Adequate
Magnesium% .40 .10 Toxic
Sulfur% .23 .10 Excessive
Cobalt ppm .14 .10 Excessive
Copper ppm 6.50 8.00 Adequate
Iron ppm 127.50 50.00 Excessive
Manganese ppm 190.50 40.00 Excessive
Selenium ppm .20 .20 Adequate
Zinc ppm 26.10 30.00 Adequate

My question is this, if the above is accurate and they are getting adequate to excessive and in some cases TOXIC levels of these minerals, why would I need free choice minerals to increase these percentages even more??

 

[novaman]

One problem I see is your Ca ratio is quite a bit off. I shoot for 2:1 and you are at 0.71:1. Something to consider is the fact that just because you are feeding this ration doesn't mean that is what they are utilizing. Each mineral varies on how much the cow can absorb and many times it isn't a very high percentage. One must also consider the tying up of certain minerals when others are available in larger quantities.

 

[TexasBred]

Don't worry about the potassium level. 1.62 is not toxic. Calcium is very deficient as is copper and manganese. As for mineral supplementation making palatable mineral while not making it TOO palatable is a real juggling act. Most companies will use cottonseed meal, dried molasses or grain by-products to enhance flavor. Without it most cattle will hardly touch the mineral no matter how badly they may need it. More often than not salt is used as a limiter. If you feel your cattle are eating the mineral in order to satisfy their need for sodium then put out free choice salt also. (granular, not salt blocks). Good luck.

 

[Arkieman]

Don't worry about the potassium level. 1.62 is not toxic. Calcium is very deficient as is copper and manganese.

No offense, but this is University software. If you can't trust their numbers, whose do you trust?

My question was, with these mineral #'s, why would you need to SUPPLEMENT MORE minerals??

 

[3rdgeneration farmer]

no pun intended just hoping to learn something, but why would you want a mineral with no salt in it?

 

[larryshoat]

Don't worry about the potassium level. 1.62 is not toxic. Calcium is very deficient as is copper and manganese.

No offense, but this is University software. If you can't trust their numbers, whose do you trust?

My question was, with these mineral #'s, why would you need to SUPPLEMENT MORE minerals??

I don't think you do.
Adding anything that is already adequate is a waste of money.


Larry

 

[novatech]

Here's a scenario that I don't understand. I feed free choice bermuda hay. I also feed a Cottonseed Meal/Rice bran ration.

Hay 75%
Bran 20%
CSM 5%

Using the OSU Ration Calculator, here is the detail

Ration Required Comment
TDN% 52.52
Fat 4.65
Fiber 25.96
Protein % 12.44 10.50 Adequate
Potassium% 1.62 .65 Toxic
Calcium% .38 .17 Adequate
Phosphorus% .53 .16 Adequate
Magnesium% .40 .10 Toxic
Sulfur% .23 .10 Excessive
Cobalt ppm .14 .10 Excessive
Copper ppm 6.50 8.00 Adequate
Iron ppm 127.50 50.00 Excessive
Manganese ppm 190.50 40.00 Excessive
Selenium ppm .20 .20 Adequate
Zinc ppm 26.10 30.00 Adequate

My question is this, if the above is accurate and they are getting adequate to excessive and in some cases TOXIC levels of these minerals, why would I need free choice minerals to increase these percentages even more??

The feed you are using may have adequate amounts of each required mineral. I do not believe it is so much the composition of the feed as what form the mineral is in and how well the animal is able to digest it. If your cattle are in good condition and there are no breeding or health problems, then I would see no need to supplement. If you just want to make sure you can have a blood test done my your local vet.
Feeding free choice mineral is just good insurance as most people do not have any type of accurate breakdown of what their cattle are really consuming.
Salt is both a limiter and flavor enhancer.
The mineral content of forage is dependent upon the mineral content of the soil it is grown in. One may not assume that there are certain amounts of available mineral or trace elements just because it is a particular varity of forage or grain.

 

[Arkieman]

Here's a scenario that I don't understand. I feed free choice bermuda hay. I also feed a Cottonseed Meal/Rice bran ration.

Hay 75%
Bran 20%
CSM 5%

Using the OSU Ration Calculator, here is the detail

Ration Required Comment
TDN% 52.52
Fat 4.65
Fiber 25.96
Protein % 12.44 10.50 Adequate
Potassium% 1.62 .65 Toxic
Calcium% .38 .17 Adequate
Phosphorus% .53 .16 Adequate
Magnesium% .40 .10 Toxic
Sulfur% .23 .10 Excessive
Cobalt ppm .14 .10 Excessive
Copper ppm 6.50 8.00 Adequate
Iron ppm 127.50 50.00 Excessive
Manganese ppm 190.50 40.00 Excessive
Selenium ppm .20 .20 Adequate
Zinc ppm 26.10 30.00 Adequate

My question is this, if the above is accurate and they are getting adequate to excessive and in some cases TOXIC levels of these minerals, why would I need free choice minerals to increase these percentages even more??

The feed you are using may have adequate amounts of each required mineral. I do not believe it is so much the composition of the feed as what form the mineral is in and how well the animal is able to digest it. If your cattle are in good condition and there are no breeding or health problems, then I would see no need to supplement. If you just want to make sure you can have a blood test done my your local vet.
Feeding free choice mineral is just good insurance as most people do not have any type of accurate breakdown of what their cattle are really consuming.
Salt is both a limiter and flavor enhancer.
The mineral content of forage is dependent upon the mineral content of the soil it is grown in. One may not assume that there are certain amounts of available mineral or trace elements just because it is a particular varity of forage or grain.

Makes sense!

 

[3rdgeneration farmer]

we should all do a test. A test to see just what cows will eat without salt in it.......LOL

I know they will eat watermelon without putting salt on it.LLOOLL