Mineral/salt cubes

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

Professionals informed me about Calcium. It was actually on a radio program I listened to a few years ago. I am not trying to argue, just stating the fact calcium can be adequately fulfilled in most forages an animal takes in ... without grain intake. It was stressed during this program that many believe that cattle need extra calcium supplements during lactation but really its not necessary because an animal can take in their calcium requirements through daily grazing of legumes.

The program did not talk about sulphur, but I believe sulphur usually needs to be supplemented, whether it be through grain or a water source. I do not believe an animal can acquire adequate sulphur through forage alone (though I haven't looked this up or been informed by a nutritionist). A little grain intake (or in your case, water which I am sure played a factor when your professional consultants analyzed your herd's daily requirements, or at least it should have been) from time to time I am sure make supplementing sulphur unnescessarry as well.

This is not a post to discourage the use of mineral supplements. Just stating that some of the things people buy in the all inclusive bags of mineral may not be exactly what the animal is lacking, or that people may be wasting a lot of mineral because the cows are going through it in order to achieve the requirements of just 1 or 2 supplements. Seems pretty wasteful. Not everyone can find exactly what it is that their herd is lacking so they get it all ( I do too). Doesn't make it right. Just makes it safe but that does not negate the fact that it is wasteful and can be done better.

Also, again, in my original post, I was not praising the use of sulphur blocks. It is an old age remedy (cure all if you will), that many still believe in today.

 

[TexasBred]

Professionals informed me about Calcium. It was actually on a radio program I listened to a few years ago. I am not trying to argue, just stating the fact calcium can be adequately fulfilled in most forages an animal takes in ... without grain intake. It was stressed during this program that many believe that cattle need extra calcium supplements during lactation but really its not necessary because an animal can take in their calcium requirements through daily grazing of legumes.

The program did not talk about sulphur, but I believe sulphur usually needs to be supplemented, whether it be through grain or a water source. I do not believe an animal can acquire adequate sulphur through forage alone (though I haven't looked this up or been informed by a nutritionist). A little grain intake (or in your case, water which I am sure played a factor when your professional consultants analyzed your herd's daily requirements, or at least it should have been) from time to time I am sure make supplementing sulphur unnescessarry as well.

This is not a post to discourage the use of mineral supplements. Just stating that some of the things people buy in the all inclusive bags of mineral may not be exactly what the animal is lacking, or that people may be wasting a lot of mineral because the cows are going through it in order to achieve the requirements of just 1 or 2 supplements. Seems pretty wasteful. Not everyone can find exactly what it is that their herd is lacking so they get it all ( I do too). Doesn't make it right. Just makes it safe but that does not negate the fact that it is wasteful and can be done better.

Also, again, in my original post, I was not praising the use of sulphur blocks. It is an old age remedy (cure all if you will), that many still believe in today.

Glad to see you start qualifiying your statements. Unfortunately we don't all have a room full of micro/macro minerals where we can select what "WE" think a cows needs and then force feed those one or two elements to them. We are left with the alternative of feeding what nutirtionist consider a good balance of all the various minerals. Many folks do the same thing for their own health such as taking multi-vitamins or a variety of minerals al at one time. It's not that expensive and is money well spent. But don't ever fool yourself or let someone else fool you into thinking a cow can always get everything she needs from forage alone or for that matter a combinmation of forage and grain.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

Unfortunately we don't all have a room full of micro/macro minerals where we can select what "WE" think a cows needs and then force feed those one or two elements to them. We are left with the alternative of feeding what nutirtionist consider a good balance of all the various minerals. Many folks do the same thing for their own health such as taking multi-vitamins or a variety of minerals al at one time. It's not that expensive and is money well spent. But don't ever fool yourself or let someone else fool you into thinking a cow can always get everything she needs from forage alone or for that matter a combinmation of forage and grain.[/quote]

Never said I had this magical room. Said I did the same thing with the "multi" source. Never said not to give mineral. Never said cows can get EVERYTHING they need from forage or a combination of forage and grain (acutally I said they couldn't). My argument was that cattle don't necessarily need calcium supplements and generally they are a waste. Are you done yet?

 

[TexasBred]

Unfortunately we don't all have a room full of micro/macro minerals where we can select what "WE" think a cows needs and then force feed those one or two elements to them. We are left with the alternative of feeding what nutirtionist consider a good balance of all the various minerals. Many folks do the same thing for their own health such as taking multi-vitamins or a variety of minerals al at one time. It's not that expensive and is money well spent. But don't ever fool yourself or let someone else fool you into thinking a cow can always get everything she needs from forage alone or for that matter a combinmation of forage and grain.

Never said I had this magical room. Said I did the same thing with the "multi" source. Never said not to give mineral. Never said cows can get EVERYTHING they need from forage or a combination of forage and grain (acutally I said they couldn't). My argument was that cattle don't necessarily need calcium supplements. Are you done yet?[/quote]

Santas and Duhram Reds on Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:26 am

Cattle generally get all the calcium they need from forage (especially legumes). Extra calcium is not needed. Phosphorus may be needed so the cow can utilize the calcium they take in but adding calcium to their intake is a waste.

Calcium is a mineral !!!!!!!! You said feeding calcium was a waste. It's the least expensive thing in a bag of mineral ($25 a ton delivered) yet one of the most necessary minerals from conception to death. And no I'll not be done until you stop making stupid statements or quoting from some guy on a radio show that you heard a few years ago and still only remember bits and pieces of what he said and probably aren't even sure you remember those parts as presented. And for whatever it's worth they also need a certain amount of sulfur.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

This is getting ridiculous. Use your head. Of course calcium is a mineral and a macro-mineral at that. Of course it is needed. Does it need supplemented? I say as a rule no. Sulphur is a micro-mineral. Is it needed...yes. Does it need supplemented. I say usually yes.

Yes I heard it on the radio, so? Most people get information through some form of media be it books, internet, news, radio. What's your point? Doesn't matter when I heard it, the information is still relevant.

You're really getting worked up about something and trying to go off the handle but its really not necessary. Really, I don't understand why you got so involved with this in the first place. The original comment made about my post was concerning cattle not needing Calcium supplementation was made from Novaman and then you felt the need to jump in. Whatever.

Always someone on these boards trying to stir the pot and to pee just a little bit farther than the next guy. Sorry if I made you feel threatened or insecure in anyway.

EDIT: Just noticed, maybe your getting hung up on the idea of EVERYTHING and then Ca. Ca is not EVERYTHING. That is why EVERYTHING is in all caps. It means more than just Ca. But Ca. can be fulfilled through forage alone. If you want to argue that, then go for it. Explain to me how mixed forages under normal conditions in a pasture will not fulfill an animals needs of Ca.

 

[novaman]

Well this has officially gotten crazy. Let's clear the air. I am not suggesting sulfur need not be supplemented. I am suggesting that salt blocks with sulfur in them are a waste. Most loose minerals have some sulfur in them already. Adding sulfur with the salt will be excess and not necessary. If you are in a situation like me, high sulfate in the water, you are trying to cut sulfur any way you can. I'm sure there are many without high sulfate in the water but, again there is sulfur in most loose minerals so the blocks are not necessary. Plain old white blocks is all I would recommend. However, Santas and Duhram Reds, I cannot go along with the idea that calcium, a macro-nutrient like you suggested, can be left out of a mineral supplement under any system. The Ca ratio is too important to ignore.

 

[TexasBred]

I'm not worked up...And the board is open for anyone to respond. You put too many contradictions in these posts to know what you're really trying to say. One minute calcium is important and needs supplementing and latter it's a waste of money. I'll stop here. Nobody is trying to outdo anybody. Only making sure you don't misinform someone with a broad statment that would make them think all is well when in reality their bottom line could be suffering.

 

[TexasBred]

Well this has officially gotten crazy. Let's clear the air. I am not suggesting sulfur need not be supplemented. I am suggesting that salt blocks with sulfur in them are a waste. Most loose minerals have some sulfur in them already. Adding sulfur with the salt will be excess and not necessary. If you are in a situation like me, high sulfate in the water, you are trying to cut sulfur any way you can. I'm sure there are many without high sulfate in the water but, again there is sulfur in most loose minerals so the blocks are not necessary. Plain old white blocks is all I would recommend. However, Santas and Duhram Reds, I cannot go along with the idea that calcium, a macro-nutrient like you suggested, can be left out of a mineral supplement under any system. The Ca ratio is too important to ignore.

Absolutely :!:

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

I will admit that sometimes my brain is thinking of too many things at once and I don't get the entire thought process down on paper (shorthand if you will), but I don't think that I contradicted myself too badly. I still stand by the statement that supplementing Ca is a waste because for the most part, for most cattlemen, for most environments, with most pastures, this I feel is a true statement. I will even wager that a simple google search or a trip to the library will find that I am not the only one with these thoughts/ideas. Yes it is included in mineral mixes. Doesn't mean it is needed. Look at your daily vitamin for example. Most of those vitamins can not even be digested for proper usage, but they still sell them and advertise them as having x mineral or y vitamin because it sells. Cattle mineral is no different.

 

[TexasBred]

I will admit that sometimes my brain is thinking of too many things at once and I don't get the entire thought process down on paper (shorthand if you will), but I don't think that I contradicted myself too badly. I still stand by the statement that supplementing Ca is a waste because for the most part, for most cattlemen, for most environments, with most pastures, this I feel is a true statement. I will even wager that a simple google search or a trip to the library will find that I am not the only one with these thoughts/ideas. Yes it is included in mineral mixes. Doesn't mean it is needed. Look at your daily vitamin for example. Most of those vitamins can not even be digested for proper usage, but they still sell them and advertise them as having x mineral or y vitamin because it sells. Cattle mineral is no different.

Ok...lets say it is a total and complete waste of money...a ton of 12-12-12 mineral contains about 85 lbs. of calcium carbonate in additon to the calcium content in the mon-calcium phosphate which is ordinarily your source of phosphorus. That's about $1.08 per ton for the added calcium in the finished product. Pretty cheap when you consider a cow will hopefully eat 4 ounces of the complete mix. Since the calcium is the cheapest ingredient in the entire mix anything you replace it with will raise the price of the mineral.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Or you could be penny wise and dollar foolish.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

Again, like I said, I still give the mineral like everyone else.

 

[novaman]

Again, like I said, I still give the mineral like everyone else.

Most forages are good sources of calcium, although some, like annual cereals and corn silage, are marginal to low in this mineral. Grain, on the other hand, is a poor source of calcium.

Calcium deficiency is not very common in animals on mostly forage diets. Deficiency can result in abnormal bone growth and reduced milk production. Cases of milk fever in beef cows are not as prevalent as they are among dairy cattle; however, some cases are reported every year. Prolonged deficiencies of calcium in late prepartum cows can also sometimes be associated with 'down cows'. This sometimes occurs when cows are fed only greenfeed throughout the winter without an adequate supply of mineral.

Low levels of vitamin D or high levels of phosphorus in the diet may also cause apparent deficiency of calcium. The calciumhosphorus ratio is important and should not be less than 1:5:1 (i.e., 1.5 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus) and not greater than 7:1. Cattle can tolerate being fed ratios of less than 1.5:1 however not for periods in excess of 30 days.

Table 1. Average macro-mineral analyses of selected Manitoba-grown feedstuffs
Calcium(%) Phosphorus(%) Ca ratio Sulphur (%)
Alfalfa Hay 1.57 0.26 6.04 0.23
Grass Legume Hay 1.48 0.20 7.40 0.16
Grass Hay 0.75 0.15 5.00 0.18
Green Feed 0.48 0.16 3.00 0.18
Barley Grain 0.06 0.32 0.19 0.13
Native Hay 0.74 0.08 9.25 0.10


Sulphur
Most home grown feeds contain adequate amounts of sulphur to meet the needs of growing animals as well as dry pregnant beef cows. Lactating cows may be marginal in sulphur, in particular the heavy milkers.
Source: Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/beef/baa05s26.html


The other calcium deficiency occasionally observed in Oklahoma occurs when pregnant and lactating cows graze lush cool-season forage, such as small grains, brome, and fescue. These cool-season forages are high in phosphorus and low in calcium during immature stages of growth. When cows in late pregnancy and early lactation graze this type of forage, grass tetany is frequently observed. Originally, the problem was thought to be solely the result of magnesium deficiency. However, more recent studies have shown that tetany may result from calcium deficiency as well as from magnesium deficiency. Symptoms of tetany from deficiencies of both minerals are indistinguishable without blood tests and the treatment consists of intravenous injections of calcium and magnesium gluconate, which supplies both minerals. Cows grazing lush small grains pastures should be fed mineral mixes containing both calcium and magnesium.
Source: Oklahome State University http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2032/E-861web.pdf

So I can understand why you make the claim on Ca that you do. When you go out and read up on it there are mixed messages. If your pastures contain a decent amount of legumes you are better off than those of us (me at least) who have little to no legumes in the pasture. However, with Ca being as cheap as it is, is it really worth trying to cut it out of the mineral mix? It is obvious that Ca deficiencies are something that is very serious. I am sure plenty have and do go w/o Ca supplementation and do fine. I figure it is cheap insurance to have it available to the cows. I suppose it doesn't help either that I dairy as well so I am always fighting with Ca problems or at least trying to keep it from becoming a problem.

 

[TexasBred]

Dairy cattle especially need the proper amount of calcium as well as a proper balance of CA as well as other minerals. My close up dry cow ration especially had very low calcium levels as well as salt and potassium just to help prevent milk fever and then begin steaming it up just prior to calving date.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Dairy cattle especially need the proper amount of calcium as well as a proper balance of CA as well as other minerals. My close up dry cow ration especially had very low calcium levels as well as salt and potassium just to help prevent milk fever and then begin steaming it up just prior to calving date.

TB I kind of look at it as an "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" thing. If you have a canned herd that never leaves the property, everything stays on the property. If you are shipping out milk, you are shipping out a lot of calcium and other things. If you are shipping out calves the way I am, you are shipping out a lot of bone mass. Do this type of thing year after year, it is going to catch up.

My soil test state everything is good. Adding mineral in the fertilizer every year keeps it that way. Feeding mineral puts some back in too as well as keep the gals healthy and calving.

 

[TexasBred]

Dairy cattle especially need the proper amount of calcium as well as a proper balance of CA as well as other minerals. My close up dry cow ration especially had very low calcium levels as well as salt and potassium just to help prevent milk fever and then begin steaming it up just prior to calving date.

TB I kind of look at it as an "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" thing. If you have a canned herd that never leaves the property, everything stays on the property. If you are shipping out milk, you are shipping out a lot of calcium and other things. If you are shipping out calves the way I am, you are shipping out a lot of bone mass. Do this type of thing year after year, it is going to catch up.

My soil test state everything is good. Adding mineral in the fertilizer every year keeps it that way. Feeding mineral puts some back in too as well as keep the gals healthy and calving.

Good for you Boogie. All the minerals that show up in the soil are not so readily utilized by the animal and what's included in the daily consumption of mineral amy be many times more than what is in the soil or the grass. In a perfect world we would never have to supplement any mineral but noone has found that place yet. ;-)