Mineral: I'm Obviously Doing It Wrong

[Spot & Bubby]

@Spot & Bubby any results?

yes. Well, sort of. I was told the nutritionist was not our mineral rep and he wasn't. Our rep is the nutritionist's boss... Took forage sample at one corner of a small piece of a single paddock and another somewhere I didn't witness. No soil samples.

Shockingly (or not) he didn't try to upsell us a custom blend. Said we are giving "exactly what they need."

In the meantime, I set out some Red Chain mentioned above at every set's water lot and watched the cows and calves partake. I don't know if it jumpstarted something, but they also resumed eating their original blend. We've had some unexplained medical issues, including a down cow and a deceased calf. Otherwise they look pretty good.

In otherwords, I know as little now as I did in the beginning. And it is frustrating.

 

[Lucky]

We are having trouble getting our cattle to eat mineral this year. The cow herd is eating maybe half of what we expected and a group of 25 heifers we calved out isn't eating 1/2 a bag a week. I was always told they'll only eat it if they need it but read an article last week that stated the opposite. The article stated that cows only eat mineral to get salt. They don't know they need the mineral at all. We gave Multimin90 this year and haven't given it in 5-6 yrs. I guess Mineral is still the great mystery.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

We are having trouble getting our cattle to eat mineral this year. The cow herd is eating maybe half of what we expected and a group of 25 heifers we calved out isn't eating 1/2 a bag a week. I was always told they'll only eat it if they need it but read an article last week that stated the opposite. The article stated that cows only eat mineral to get salt. They don't know they need the mineral at all. We gave Multimin90 this year and haven't given it in 5-6 yrs. I guess Mineral is still the great mystery.

We had terrible red ants, the big ants, last year. Then desert termites, not the house eaters, wiped out a lot of our forage here south of Abilene. Did you have anything like that?

 

[wbvs58]

We are having trouble getting our cattle to eat mineral this year. The cow herd is eating maybe half of what we expected and a group of 25 heifers we calved out isn't eating 1/2 a bag a week. I was always told they'll only eat it if they need it but read an article last week that stated the opposite. The article stated that cows only eat mineral to get salt. They don't know they need the mineral at all. We gave Multimin90 this year and haven't given it in 5-6 yrs. I guess Mineral is still the great mystery.

And phosphorous. Australian soils are low in P and cows will chase mineral with P in it when they are low. They will chew on bones if mineral is not available and they are low and this poses a risk of botulism.

Ken

 

[Lucky]

We had terrible red ants, the big ants, last year. Then desert termites, not the house eaters, wiped out a lot of our forage here south of Abilene. Did you have anything like that?

We have red ants but not too bad. We mainly have fire ants. Never seen them in the mineral though. Beginning to wonder if it's the feeders we use.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

We have red ants but not too bad. We mainly have fire ants. Never seen them in the mineral though. Beginning to wonder if it's the feeders we use.

I was thinking about something @Mark Reynolds mentioned in another thread about cherries and caterpillars and wondered if environmental factors like an abundance of this or a deficit of that may have had an impact, not only on navels and knees in my calves, but mortality rates as well. /r most obvious environmental factors in our area were red ants and termites, not in the mineral but in the soil.

My lack of experience is frustrating and unproductive. The puzzle obviously keeps me awake at night.... I'm about from blaming chemtrails at this point.

 

[Nick Wagner]

I've heard many times cattle will only eat what they need. Doc Hazard told of cattle licking on an old bag of arsenic that was used as a step at the barn door. Some of them died as a result. Make your own conclusions, but remember, her mother was a cow.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I was thinking about something @Mark Reynolds mentioned in another thread about cherries and caterpillars and wondered if environmental factors like an abundance of this or a deficit of that may have had an impact, not only on navels and knees in my calves, but mortality rates as well. /r most obvious environmental factors in our area were red ants and termites, not in the mineral but in the soil.

My lack of experience is frustrating and unproductive. The puzzle obviously keeps me awake at night.... I'm about from blaming chemtrails at this point.

You are correct about an abundance of this or a deficit of that having an impact having an impact, and it potentially can be seen in mortality rates. Someone here on Cattle Today, I don't remember who or the thread, maybe this one, was talking about a calcium deficiency they 'discovered' in their herd. Calcium is known to be a culprit or needed in some difficult births. The individual that made the post was responding I think to a thread about lime and pH and I think he was told that calcium wasn't needed if the pasture was limed. Well, if I remember, he corrected the soil pH with lime. However, he later discovered he had a calcium deficiency. This was because of a single instance in calving difficulty. However, there was a 'hidden' indicator all along. I think he had been having one to a couple/few spontaneous abortions a year, maybe sometimes actually not having ant a particular year. He had chalked it up to "it happens". Turned out that when he started supplementing with added calcium mineral because of the one instance, the abortion problems disappeared as well. I don't think cows/animals seek out calcium when they are deficient, but there are minerals that they do. Not that I count, but I'm a "milkaholic", and I do tend to go through times when I crave milk more than others. Is my body craving calcium in those cases? I don't know and I don't concern myself with it. I just drink more milk, because I want it. I'm not concerned biologically why unless there appears to be some potential adverse cause or effect. I'm digressing.

There is a point I'm trying to get to here, and that is be observant of everything. There are multiple messages and signs that can and will tell you what is going on, and the messages and/or signs aren't necessarily going to be the same all the time. One of the bright spots here is that you don't necessarily have to be experienced to see them. The exact opposite can be true. If you don't have experience and you are observant, you might actually pick up on something that an experienced cattleman/livestock owner misses, because of their experience. I'll make a case in point. Myself. I think most everyone here knows I'm not a livestock owner. There are things about being one I doubt I could deal with very well, but I haven't tried either. I don't want to. Does my lack of experience as a livestock owner make me unproductive and not contributing here? I figure some on here would say a resounding yes. I suspect a great many would reply: Not hardly! But at the same time, I am not a livestock owner and there are aspects of being one that in all honesty I'm probably about clueless about, and that would be because I haven't bothered to look for the signs or messages, not necessarily because of lack of experience, but there is no doubt that is a contributor.

Don't let it keep you awake at night. Ask questions and learn a little more each day. Don't apply blame without evidence.
(The evidence is probably there. All you have to do is ask the right questions and be observant.)

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I've heard many times cattle will only eat what they need. Doc Hazard told of cattle licking on an old bag of arsenic that was used as a step at the barn door. Some of them died as a result. Make your own conclusions, but remember, her mother was a cow.

Cows will eat what they need if it is available, true. They will also eat what they don't need, if it is attractive in some fashion (Taste, appearance, availability....)

The "only" part of that statement is not true.

 

[Travlr]

I was thinking about something @Mark Reynolds mentioned in another thread about cherries and caterpillars and wondered if environmental factors like an abundance of this or a deficit of that may have had an impact, not only on navels and knees in my calves, but mortality rates as well. /r most obvious environmental factors in our area were red ants and termites, not in the mineral but in the soil.

My lack of experience is frustrating and unproductive. The puzzle obviously keeps me awake at night.... I'm about from blaming chemtrails at this point.

I still think your animals are too closely related. That's what I would be looking at before anything else. It's far too easy today without realizing it with all the pyramid of AI bulls coming from related sources and now even flushing females for far more calves than normal. And the number of people that think they can inbreed and linebreed with immunity is alarming.

And not to say it couldn't be other things. Mineral deficiencies come to mind. But the odds diminish with every other idea...

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I just looked through the entire thread again. I do think that the issue is environmental and not the mineral you are feeding. You haven't amended the soil with anything to account for a sudden change. It could be forage, but you have indicated you do noy overgraze, so I wouldn't think a big impact there. Sounds like it was a 'rapid' onset and maybe rapid reversal. You mentioned/this was mentioned only once I saw (maybe more). What did/does/has it been the testing of water sources say? That would be environmental and could be rapid. Several years back, mercury levels spiked in water levels in south Florida and caused toxicity issues, then the levels dropped. I don't think a clear reason was ever determined, but there (water) is a possible environmental source of any issue that ....might have been?....overlooked.

 

[NIdahoShorthorns]

Cows will eat what they need if it is available, true. They will also eat what they don't need, if it is attractive in some fashion (Taste, appearance, availability....)

The "only" part of that statement is not true.

As I read this and drink my coffee I'm watching a heifer eat bark off a ponderosa stump. Why? She's standing knee high in fresh grass and probably ate all night long. Which is probably the answer, she's full and bored, and browsers will browse.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

As I read this and drink my coffee I'm watching a heifer eat bark off a ponderosa stump. Why? She's standing knee high in fresh grass and probably ate all night long. Which is probably the answer, she's full and bored, and browsers will browse.

Maybe she likes butterscotch? At least that is what Ponderosa pine bark smells like to me.

 

[Ouachita]

We are having trouble getting our cattle to eat mineral this year. The cow herd is eating maybe half of what we expected and a group of 25 heifers we calved out isn't eating 1/2 a bag a week. I was always told they'll only eat it if they need it but read an article last week that stated the opposite. The article stated that cows only eat mineral to get salt. They don't know they need the mineral at all. We gave Multimin90 this year and haven't given it in 5-6 yrs. I guess Mineral is still the great mystery.

I have those round ground feeders with the three compartments and heavy rubber flap they stick there head under and lift.
Each compartment would hold 50 pounds, but they end up raking a lot out. I put 2/3 bag of salt in one compartment, 2/3 bag of mineral in another, and then the remaining 1/3s of each bag get mixed up in the last. They always finish the mixed compartment first.

 

[Lucky]

I have those round ground feeders with the three compartments and heavy rubber flap they stick there head under and lift.
Each compartment would hold 50 pounds, but they end up raking a lot out. I put 2/3 bag of salt in one compartment, 2/3 bag of mineral in another, and then the remaining 1/3s of each bag get mixed up in the last. They always finish the mixed compartment first.

We use the same type feeders. We've got 7 or 8 of them now so have been reluctant to change feeders. In the past I always put Salt in one compartment and mineral in the other two. They always ate the salt first so we stopped the salt and just do 3 bags of mineral now. I'm thinking this week we'll try and mix a bag of salt and 2 bags of mineral then fill each compartment and see how that works.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

I still think your animals are too closely related. That's what I would be looking at before anything else. It's far too easy today without realizing it with all the pyramid of AI bulls coming from related sources and now even flushing females for far more calves than normal. And the number of people that think they can inbreed and linebreed with immunity is alarming.

And not to say it couldn't be other things. Mineral deficiencies come to mind. But the odds diminish with every other idea...

The set with the most issues came to the ranch as a group gathered together by a buyer. The bulls they were exposed to joined us from an unrelated breeder a year later.

Mineral deficiency is still my strongest suspicion.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

I just looked through the entire thread again. I do think that the issue is environmental and not the mineral you are feeding. You haven't amended the soil with anything to account for a sudden change. It could be forage, but you have indicated you do noy overgraze, so I wouldn't think a big impact there. Sounds like it was a 'rapid' onset and maybe rapid reversal. You mentioned/this was mentioned only once I saw (maybe more). What did/does/has it been the testing of water sources say? That would be environmental and could be rapid. Several years back, mercury levels spiked in water levels in south Florida and caused toxicity issues, then the levels dropped. I don't think a clear reason was ever determined, but there (water) is a possible environmental source of any issue that ....might have been?....overlooked.

See? That's what's frustrating... These are not my cows. (Well, 3 are) This is not my grass. This is not my land. I just work here. Bossman's level of urgency and concern does not match my own. Maybe he doesn't want the expense of testing and treating? Maybe he hasn't experienced the emotional, financial, reputational or resource loss at which it becomes actionable. Maybe something else, entirely. I can't say. But there's little to no action toward resolution or discovery. Everything is "just how it is sometimes."

I see it as a problem of loss of health, life and resources with a potential solution that could improve quality of life for the animals that feed as and provide me with income.

In other words, tests are not being conducted.

If you missed it at the beginning of the year, here's my ants and termites thread in which I describe the sudden onset and severity of "environmental factors."

 

[Travlr]

The set with the most issues came to the ranch as a group gathered together by a buyer. The bulls they were exposed to joined us from an unrelated breeder a year later.

Mineral deficiency is still my strongest suspicion.

And you may be correct... but in the interest of voicing an opinion that many people could stand to think about I'm gonna describe why it could be a problem with too-close genetics even though the cows and bulls are from unrelated sources.

How many people here use Angus bulls? I'd say a fair number. And in the discussions I've observed there seem to be a lot of knowledge-in-common about bulls they use for AI. What I'm saying is that if there are 10/20/50 people in a room and they are all knowledgeable about 50% (or more) of the bulls they are using... then they are probably all using those bulls or their offspring. And they may live states apart and they may live across the nearest fence.

How many people check the genetics on commercial cows? I never did. But increasingly the same bulls used for siring multiple cows in any herd is also closely related to the sire of the bull that someone is buying at a bull sale.

How many top bulls are there? How many bulls do they sire which end up in commercial production? And how close are the top bulls genetically? And then... when someone wants to make their Sim/Lim/whatever homozygous black... are they also using those top bulls or some scrub?

Just a few thoughts after I've been running some numbers in my head...

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I haven't been able to get the cows in any of our sets to eat mineral for weeks.

Quite a few cows are about to lose their places on our roster. I hate that because I try so hard to help them be productive so they can stay on the payroll. At the same time, I'm mad at them because I'm seeing the the consequences of their actions in their offspring.

Our biggest set of cows, 147 head, was 74.5% calved out as of Saturday which was day #20 of their calving season. Of those born babies, about 5.5% are presenting vitamin and mineral deficiencies that are not easy to watch. I

I'm sure we'll be losing even more who don't breed because of lacking vitamins and mineral.

How can I get them to eat the mineral? Or is it too late to make a difference by May?

OK. I'm somewhat lost now. Here you say "Our biggest set of cows" and "cows.......our roster". Then you say later 3 of the cows are yours and indicate pretty much that you aren't making the decisions. Could you explain your role/participation/relationship/disposition to the cows? You do refer to the "Boss", so I'm thinking you might be a herdsman (correct term?) or a cowboy in the original meaning of the word who answers to a Boss/Trail-Boss. I might get a better idea/thought on how to possibly approach identifying/correcting any problems if I understood that a bit more. Then again, I could become more lost.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

OK. I'm somewhat lost now. Here you say "Our biggest set of cows" and "cows.......our roster". Then you say later 3 of the cows are yours and indicate pretty much that you aren't making the decisions. Could you explain your role/participation/relationship/disposition to the cows? You do refer to the "Boss", so I'm thinking you might be a herdsman (correct term?) or a cowboy in the original meaning of the word who answers to a Boss/Trail-Boss. I might get a better idea/thought on how to possibly approach identifying/correcting any problems if I understood that a bit more. Then again, I could become more....

I understand the confusion. I am a ranch hand. Each year, stay on the job. I get to select my choice calf from the current crop of calves. I select heifers. I now have two heifers. My first heifer just had her first calf, a bull. My three head of cattle run with the roughly 300 pair of cows and calves and 25 bulls I tend to for my job.