Max price on a Bull for commercial use

[Lee VanRoss]

It was my own application of KY hills 'insurance policy' that changed the direction of my cattle in 2008.
I have never regretted or looked back and wondered. I don't concern myself with what is going on across the
fence or the internet other than to get someone to think for themselves and an occasional prod to their concious.

 

[Bob Kinford]

Good advice, but myth #3 not so much. Santa Gertrudis are not cross-breds. They are their own stabilized breed, well -established since the 40's. They have their own DNA. Same thing with Beefmaster, Brangus, Braford, etc. A registered Brangus bull, tested to be homozygous black, will throw a polled, black calf every time . I agree with the myth.. which is in fact a truth, on using a half Brahma -half Angus bull. Half the calves could turn out like a Brahma cross , and half like an Angus cross. If you were gonna use say, a black baldy bull...half Hereford and half Angus, then you may as well use 2 bulls, a Hereford and an Angus. You'd get the same consistency in the calf crop.

#4....Today's young registered bulls are actually proven by the time they are two through extensive AI programs. Composite breeds begin as crossbred, but develop over time into the composite breed. I worked for Leachman Cattle Company back when they were starting their Balancer and Stabilizer breeds (and spent over two years with the nucleus herd the Stabilizers were developed from.) The man who started the Black Maximizer Cattle spent years developing that four breed composite through embryo transplants. The uniformity of those breeds is absolutely amazing and a testament to what can be done with intense, selective breeding.

As Jim Leachman used to say "There is as much genetic diversity within any breed of cattle as there are between any two breeds." The whole trick is in selecting for what you really need over what fad breeders are telling you to want.

 

[Son of Butch]

looking back at the last (2) bulls purchased and their calves performance
I found that calves sired by my current (2) bulls average +55# and +52# heavier
at weaning than their predecessors calves.

How much did you pay for each of the 3 or 4 bulls?

Any significant difference in where, why or how you selected each?

 

[LocustDaleCattleCompany]

Just bought two bulls last night at the Quaker Hill Farm sale. Thought the bulls looked decent and price was definitely right.

Quaker Hill Smokin 9U12 (Heifer Bull) sired by KCF Bennett Summation

CED +15 WEPD +71 YEPD +136 DOC +35 $W +82 $B +138

Paid $2600

Quaker Hill Summation 9U26 another Summation sired bull

CED +10 WEPD +86 YEPD +150 DOC +24 $W +95 $B +165

Paid $3200

 

[SimAngus farmer]

How much did you pay for each of the 3 or 4 bulls?

Any significant difference in where, why or how you selected each?

$3100 and $2500 for the previous 2 bulls. $4250 and $4000 for my current bulls.
The previous bulls were very average in their epd's. Looking back, I feel like both performed similarly to what was projected. At the time of purchase, I had little knowledge of epd's and didn't make the best choices.
My current bulls were selected with a focus on growth and maternal traits. By the time I purchased these bulls I had done tissue samples on my cowherd and recieved an epd profile for them. WW and YW were overall below breed average throughout my cows.
The $3100 bull was a sim-angus and was replaced by $4250 a PB Simmental from the same breeder. The other swap was brangus for brangus, but from different breeders.

 

[Brute 23]

$3100 and $2500 for the previous 2 bulls. $4250 and $4000 for my current bulls.
The previous bulls were very average in their epd's. Looking back, I feel like both performed similarly to what was projected. At the time of purchase, I had little knowledge of epd's and didn't make the best choices.
My current bulls were selected with a focus on growth and maternal traits. By the time I purchased these bulls I had done tissue samples on my cowherd and recieved an epd profile for them. WW and YW were overall below breed average throughout my cows.
The $3100 bull was a sim-angus and was replaced by $4250 a PB Simmental from the same breeder. The other swap was brangus for brangus, but from different breeders.

I have been wanting to do that tissue test on some cattle to help with further decision making on culling and bulls.

It's amazing what they can do now. They also have one that tells you how fertile a heifer will be at a very young age.

 

[Ky hills]

It was my own application of KY hills 'insurance policy' that changed the direction of my cattle in 2008.
I have never regretted or looked back and wondered. I don't concern myself with what is going on across the
fence or the internet other than to get someone to think for themselves and an occasional prod to their concious.

I think a lot of times we are being had by marketing. People believe that a well fed "well bred" bull with registration # and a well hyped prefix is going to be of higher quality than something from a pasture of somebody else. So many factors at play that can influence so-called superiority and may even be detrimental in some instances. If I retain a bull from one of our cows, I know more about it than one I would buy even with performance records and EPD's, those are all subjective in my opinion. Then a cow or cow family here that I would select a bull from has performed in our environment and management and thus a bull should too, and his daughters should as well.

 

[simme]

In regards to proving a bulls value/worth, it takes a long time. A bull is going to be about 12 months old at the earliest before he is collected or used for natural breeding, probably a little older. Nine months to the first calves giving some data on birth weight and calving ease. Some growth data when those first calves are weaned. Carcass trait data on calves (if used) comes many months later at harvest. Maternal calving ease data comes when his daughters calve starting at about 2 years of age. Milking ability in daughters when those daughters wean their first calves. Data on longevity in daughters - many years. Looking at all the traits that would be looked at to "prove" a bull, the bull is going to be around 4 years old to just get the first round of data for most of the traits. Might be 6 years old before there is enough data to consider him "proven" in a trait. An AI bull can be used for many years after that. On a natural service bull, you are pretty much already down the road a ways in your commitment by the time you start seeing the impact on your herd if you are keeping replacements..

 

[Lucky_P]

Paid $7K for the last one we bought, back in 2016. 80 cow herd, split Fall/Spring breeding seasons, and we were still doing AI, so he was mostly doing cleanup and breeding heifers.
Sold the herd in 2019, so he didn't get his full stay here - last bull stayed 'til he was 10... but was mostly doing cleanup the last 6 years of his residency.

 

[gcreekrch]

Never been in competition to buy the cheapest bulls. Always wanted the best we could afford.
Bred cows are a different deal.........

 

[Brute 23]

If you have a good resource for home raised, well priced bulls that's great. I've seen home raised commercial bulls throwing some great calves. The people have been doing it a long time and have worked the kinks out.

Your paying for convenience of window shopping what every bull you want, a warranty, limiting risk with genetic history, and time for them raising/holding it until you need it.

 

[Nesikep]

I am kinda wondering how accurate DNA profiling is on many traits... it's such a complex system I find it really difficult to imagine we've figured very much of it out.. We certainly have figured out markers for defects and such, but growth, milk, stayability, longevity are so complex and change with environment, I don't think we'll ever get it right for everyone.. Just on longevity, you've got breedback, production, hooves, udders, attitude, etc to consider, and the cow that can eat scrub grass and breed back is not the same cow that is going to be a productive cow in a lusher environment... I would be curious to do a few tests on my cows and see how I agree with the results

 

[Son of Butch]

$3100 and $2500 for the previous 2 bulls. $4250 and $4000 for my current bulls.
The previous bulls were very average in their epd's.
WW and YW were overall below breed average throughout my cows.
The $3100 bull was a sim-angus and was replaced by $4250 a PB Simmental from the same breeder. The other swap was brangus for brangus, but from different breeders.

aaa data
WW .28 heritable yw .27 (environment .72-.73)
125 lb ww spread from top 1% 113 lbs to bottom 1% -12 lbs
breed average ww 56 lbs

max gain expected in 1 generation 62.5 lbs
your 2 bulls achieved 55 lbs [88%] 52 lbs [83%] of maximum expectation

$1150 additional investment in PB sim returned a net gain of $2,132.97
$1500 increased cost of Brangus bull - net gain $547 (i assume only 1 yr ?)

It appears to me that 4000-4750 is your sweet spot for bull price to achieve the most cost effective gains in your local area.
You increased your bull budget 47% from $5,600 to $8,250 to capture 85.75% of achievable gain (WELL DONE) but I estimate 5,000 as your point of diminishing returns for your current cow herd, if you try to chase 100% of maximum expectation of 62.5 lbs in 1 generation

Don't forget environment: weather, feed, management, ect is 72% of the equation.
just my 2 cents

 

[Nkline]

aaa data
WW .28 heritable yw .27 (environment .72-.73)
125 lb ww spread from top 1% 113 lbs to bottom 1% -12 lbs
breed average ww 56 lbs

max gain expected in 1 generation 62.5 lbs
your 2 bulls achieved 55 lbs [88%] 52 lbs [83%] of maximum expectation

$1150 additional investment in PB sim returned a net gain of $2,132.97
$1500 increased cost of Brangus bull - net gain $547 (i assume only 1 yr ?)

It appears to me that 4000-4750 is your sweet spot for bull price to achieve the most cost effective gains in your local area.
You increased your bull budget 47% from $5,600 to $8,250 to capture 85.75% of achievable gain (WELL DONE) but I estimate 5,000 as your point of diminishing returns for your current cow herd, if you try to chase 100% of maximum expectation of 62.5 lbs in 1 generation

Don't forget environment: weather, feed, management, ect is 72% of the equation.
just my 2 cents

Don't forget the epds are mostly generated in herds that are fed hard, and often creep fed. So the spread is likely over exaggerated, or may be completely different if generated under different management.

 

[Son of Butch]

Don't forget the epds are mostly generated in herds that are fed hard, and often creep fed.... may be completely different if generated under different management.

yup
ww 72% environment and 28% genetic, there is only so much that can be expected from a bull and his current bulls were a major improvement over his previous lower purchase priced bulls - he was successful in finding what works well for him.
imo in his case, it would be hard to justify spending over 5,000 for a bull for his current herd.

 

[Stocker Steve]

How effective is DNA testing on grade cattle?

 

[gcreekrch]

If you have a good resource for home raised, well priced bulls that's great. I've seen home raised commercial bulls throwing some great calves. The people have been doing it a long time and have worked the kinks out.

Your paying for convenience of window shopping what every bull you want, a warranty, limiting risk with genetic history, and time for them raising/holding it until you need it.

Over half the bulls here are home raised.

 

[Nesikep]

Does anyone here know what hertiability actually is and how it's defined?

How hertiable do you think each of these traits are?
Cows having 4 legs.
Cows having 4 teats
Mature size
Color of hair

 

[Nesikep]

Over half the bulls here are home raised.

On a herd your size I think it makes total sense, for one, you can justify some high quality PB bulls that have EPD's in the direction you want to go, and you have a large stock of cows to draw bulls from.. inbreeding is pretty much a non-issue, and you know what works in your environment

 

[Brute 23]

On a herd your size I think it makes total sense, for one, you can justify some high quality PB bulls that have EPD's in the direction you want to go, and you have a large stock of cows to draw bulls from.. inbreeding is pretty much a non-issue, and you know what works in your environment

Exactly. That makes sense. That is the only way I could justify an AI program. Keep a small herd of purebreds and AI out in the direction you want to go. Develope the bulls with the parameters that are important to you. When you start buying groups of $5k+ bulls you can pull a group of cows and AI for that purpose and probably come out better.

My complaint about buying from a lot of these purebred, registered breeders is they chase the trends to much especially in the show ring or for the big sales. A lot of them are overfeeding for the stats.