Max price on a Bull for commercial use

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Stocker Steve

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2/3-3/4 of my calves will be AI bred and I select a couple of calves to use for clean up each year. I think my cow herd looks the goods.
It is tempting to try a number of bulls to "match" each cow.
An old timer told me to use one proven bull each year that will stamp his calves, then decide if you need to keep using him.

Comments?
 

WFfarm

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Just for discussion purposes - So, a breed that started as a crossbred (or even a 3 way cross) is no longer a crossbred after so many years and if a breed association is formed based on that cross? Not disagreeing. But, some people on this board have been quick to point out that any breed association with an open registry that allows a breed-up program is actually a crossbred breed. Some have been quick to point out that most black animals other than angus are not purebred since they were crossed at some point to get the black. That includes simmental, simangus, gelbvieh, black herford, brangus and some others.
How many years or generations does it take for a crossbred to become a purebred? How many years before there is consistency in the calf crop? If there is no consistency in the calf crop from a first generation brangus or simangus, how many generations are needed. If you are still bringing in new genetics from both breeds, do you never get consistent calves?
Within a breed, do you lose consistency in the calf crop if you use what is referred to as outcross genetics. Just looking for some discussions and opinions.
The labro-doodles of the cattle world, lol.
 

Coosh71

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First pic is sire ($4000 bull) last 2 pics of calves retained and sold at approx 15-18 months. Sold each bull for $2000 and have sold others to same folks. Sire is registered (99% GV) bull calves are 50/50 balancers.
 

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Son of Butch

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The labro-doodles of the cattle world, lol.
I understand you were just making a joke... but
Labradoodles are not a breed - f1 hybrid created by crossing 2 pure breeds.

AKC doesn't recognize them as a breed, but if parents are AKC registered Labradoodles can be CKC registered and perhaps one day breeder programs might be able to meet standards to accept them as a new pure breed.
But currently the litters are so varied and unpredictable it will be a long row to hoe.
 

Warren Allison

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Just for discussion purposes - So, a breed that started as a crossbred (or even a 3 way cross) is no longer a crossbred after so many years and if a breed association is formed based on that cross? Not disagreeing. But, some people on this board have been quick to point out that any breed association with an open registry that allows a breed-up program is actually a crossbred breed. Some have been quick to point out that most black animals other than angus are not purebred since they were crossed at some point to get the black. That includes simmental, simangus, gelbvieh, black herford, brangus and some others.
Simmental is a good example of a breed that is no longer purebred, as like you say, they are "up breeding to turn the cattle black. Simangus are in fact, crossbreds. I assume you are talking about Balancers when you said Gelbvieh, These can be 75% to 25 % Gelbvieh and the rest red or black Angus, This is not a stablized breed yet. Black Hereford and Brangus are established breeds. BH's are 5/8th Herford and 3/8th Angus., Br are 5/8 angus and 3/8 Brahma. Breed a Brangus to a Brangus, and you get a Brangus. Cattle have 60 chromosomes.. 29 pairs that make a Hereford a Hereford, or a Black angus a Black angus, and 1 pair of sex chromosones. So if you breed a herford to angus, the calf.. black baldy..has 1 set of angus Chromosomes and 1 set of Hereford chromosomes. Half a black baldy's eggs will have a full set of Hereford chromosomes, and half will have Angus. Same with a black baldy bull. If you breed a black baldy cow to a black baldy bull, 25% of the caves will be full blooded angus, 50% will be black baldies, and 25% will be a red hereford. Breed a Black hereford to a Black hereford, and 100% of the calves will be Black Hereford.
How many years or generations does it take for a crossbred to become a purebred? How many years before there is consistency in the calf crop? If there is no consistency in the calf crop from a first generation brangus or simangus, how many generations are needed. If you are still bringing in new genetics from both breeds, do you never get consistent calves?
Within a breed, do you lose consistency in the calf crop if you use what is referred to as outcross genetics. Just looking for some discussions and opinions.
For a new breed to be developed from a 2 way cross, it is 3 generations. For example, when they developed Brangus. The first cross was a full blooded Brahma to a full blooded Angus, This is called F1. Then they took the 12/Br 1/2 Ang, and bred them back to Angus. This produced a 3/4 angus and 1/4 Brahma. ..these are F2. These were then bred back to 1/2 Angus and 1/2 Brahma, and those calves were 5/8ths Angus and 3/8ths Brahma, and they now have their own genetic material in their 29 pairs of BRANGUS chromosomes. Breeding a Brangus to a Brangus can never result in a Brahma calf or an Angus calf.
 

LDEnterprises

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First pic is sire ($4000 bull) last 2 pics of calves retained and sold at approx 15-18 months. Sold each bull for $2000 and have sold others to same folks. Sire is registered (99% GV) bull calves are 50/50 balancers.
That’s a beauty of a Bull. I’d take 10 just like him tomorrow in Black please!!! Looks a lot like a balancer Bull I had for 6 years until I culled him this spring.
 

Coosh71

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That’s a beauty of a Bull. I’d take 10 just like him tomorrow in Black please!!!
Lol yes I understand. We aren't hung up on the black craze. Never was. We don't sell for a penny less than the "all black" groups. And thanks for the compliment. We sure have enjoyed him he is dog gentle, eat out of you hand. Calves are the same. Heifers are like dang pets by the time we put a bull on them. Can't pay enough for docility in a 2000# animal. Thanks again.
 

smartin0022

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Got a big butt for an angus
I liked him best out of the 18 they had to offer.. Had papers and they are a reputable outfit bout 500 registered head, but I agree. Isn't like the Angus my old man raised when I was a kid they was few inches off the ground and long.
 

CowsRcuddly

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So many issues that come into play. I will address a few.

Myth #1. A bull with good EPD's is better than a bull with bad EPD's. EPD's are predictions of genetic merit. People get excited about them and might make decisions on that basis. Just as important as the numbers is the accuracy of the numbers. Great numbers with low accuracy - you really don't know what you have yet. Young bulls generally have low accuracy EPD's. If the whole story were in EPD's, then no one would ever care what a bull looked like, just select for numbers. That is not a good plan. Now, if all else is equal, pick the bull with good numbers. EPD's are not bad, but they are not the whole story. Certainly not the primary selection criteria.

Myth #2. Paying more money will get you a better bull. Or always purchase a higher priced bull. In the big overall picture, there is certainly a relationship. But, the people who buy your calves don't care what your bull cost or pay on that basis. Select and buy a bull that has the qualities you need for your cows and conditions and market. There are still unknowns until you get calves, but price is not the main selection criteria.

Myth #3. You need to use a purebred bull. Crossbred bulls sire calves that are not uniform. That eliminates sim-angus, balancer, beef master, Gert's, etc - all are crossbreeds. Many good calves are sired by crossbred bulls.

Myth #4. Use a young bull. Ship by five years old. Just like cows, keep and use a bull as long as they are doing their job with no signs of issues. It takes a while to prove a bull. Why ship him if he is proven and not showing any signs of problems or causing trouble? Just like a spouse, if they are working out, stick with them.

Myth #5. Never use a home raised bull. Always buy from a "breeder". If you have good cattle for your conditions and market, evaluate your retained bull calves the same as you would any other bull purchase. They may fit your conditions just fine.

Myth #6. Always buy a bull with a high weaning weight or yearling weight or the heaviest bull in the sale. Maybe from a performance bull test with ratings based on ADG and WDA. Tempting, isn't it. Those big fat bulls do look photogenic. Keep in mind that feedlot cattle are fed to a finish condition - not worried about longevity. You don't want a bull fed like a feedlot steer. If your friends are impressed with a fat bull, you need to get some new friends that better understand cattle. That fat is not muscle.

Just giving my thoughts for my area. And stirring the pot, hoping it don't boil over. :)
So what is your opinion of the Midland Bull Test? What about any big breeder that "tests" their bulls at home? Are they all big fat bulls?
 

simme

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So what is your opinion of the Midland Bull Test? What about any big breeder that "tests" their bulls at home? Are they all big fat bulls?
"Testing" for comparison is good. I mentioned "fat" bulls and being finished like a feedlot animal. And tests where the goal is MAX gain and WDA. No doubt in my mind that getting a bull very FAT to MAXIMIZE his growth/weight ability at a young age leads to health issues and joint issues and feet issues and longevity issues. Same with a cow. Feed them like a feedlot animal and fertility will decline. Don't do that with your children, your dogs or your cattle - my opinion and I think most will agree. Some of which will then purchase overly conditioned bulls.

I have no direct knowledge or experience with the Midland test, but their website says "We stay out of the “gain race,” setting up a level playing field and letting the bulls write their own efficiency story. Midland is the only major performance program feeding a low energy ration." It does not sound like my myth #6.
 

wbvs58

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It is tempting to try a number of bulls to "match" each cow.
An old timer told me to use one proven bull each year that will stamp his calves, then decide if you need to keep using him.

Comments?
I'm starting to think along those lines. I'm trying to limit to one new bull each year and then to keep using for 3 years if I'm happy with him
 

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