Max price on a Bull for commercial use

[Rydero]

I hear so many people complain about these overfed developed bulls melting in the pasture but yet if you try to sell a young bull that has not been stuffed with grain people don't want to pay anything for it. I had a reg. Red Angus low birth weight coming 2 year old bull for sale. We were going to shorthorns so that was the only reason he was for sale. I had lots if interest but no one wanted to pay much. I ended selling him for 1500 to move him along. Now I have calves out there from him and thinking I should have kept him. We want colorful calves so we are going short horn. One of the most important things we look for in a bull is handlability. If they don't want to be nice they have to leave. I have a very hands on operation. I halter break my bulls. My operation is different from most of your operations. I think everyone needs to get the best bull they can afford that fits their operation. But a high price does not always mean quality. You need to look at the bull and really evaluate him to make sure he can help you get to your goals. How will he mesh with your cow herd?

It's definitely a fine line between overfed and underfed on a bull. I usually like to get a new one early and put him on a bit of a diet before breeding season as I like them fit not fat. Sometimes you see one that someone wants to sell (for 2-3x the price of a similar aged animal that isn't a bull) and they obviously fed him poorly and they don't want to register him because it's too expensive. Why would I pay a premium for that?

It's very hard sometimes to fairly compare bulls from different homes because they're fed differently. To simplify I like to look at the epd's and then compare the ones I'm interested in vs their peers in the same herd. Because I'm looking for terminal performance I want to buy from the top performers in that breeders herd. His bulls that didn't do as well might be bigger than the guy down the road's but they're not exceptional vs their peers so I'm not interested.

 

[CVAR]

When selling commercial calves in a commercial market how much you spent on your bull makes absolutely no difference. A 1700.00 bull who's calves ring the bell is just as good as a 17000.00 bull.

That is really bad advice to someone that is asking a legitimate question. Rather than a right or wrong answer for this, here is what you need to consider. How do you market your calves? If you have bigger numbers (say more than 70'ish) and you retain ownership on those cattle all the way up until they are processed, then paying higher dollars for elite marbling genetics will absolutely pay a difference (unlike callmefence's statement above). If you sell right when you wean, then you don't really care about performance on the rail but you might want to pay for elite weaning weight bulls to get the most pounds possible (again making a big difference between prices)...If your breeding a bunch of smaller frames 1st calf heifers, you might want to buy the elite, sure fire calving ease bulls. I could go on and on. On top of that and where things really begin to affect price is when the bull has elite numbers but also looks good - people will pay big $$$ for that. Good question that needs a good answer - there is an absolute difference between a $1700 bull and a 17k bull. A good average price for a yearling bull is 2500-3500 while a decent average for 18month old to 2yr is additive of about $500 to that. That should net an AI sired bull that hits a good mark. Using any old bull regardless of commercial or otherwise usually means calving problems, inconsistency in progeny, bad structure and the list goes on and on. Just like breeding dogs or other animals, the majority of males should not be used for breeding, use of only the better ones should be utilized (lots of backyard breeders breeding pets that should never be allowed to breed them but it happens - albeit to the detriment of the various breeds)

 

[callmefence]

On the other hand, one of the most expensive things a commercial guy can do is buy a cheap bull.

I find that by the time a bull turns 5 they can get to be a real challenge to find in the fall. Seems like they will find a piece of thick bush to hole up in in an apparent attempt to starve themselves to death. It can take a lot of time and energy to track them down and bring them home.

Always seemed to me 5 is about the age they figure out how big they are.

That is really bad advice to someone that is asking a legitimate question. Rather than a right or wrong answer for this, here is what you need to consider. How do you market your calves? If you have bigger numbers (say more than 70'ish) and you retain ownership on those cattle all the way up until they are processed, then paying higher dollars for elite marbling genetics will absolutely pay a difference (unlike callmefence's statement above). If you sell right when you wean, then you don't really care about performance on the rail but you might want to pay for elite weaning weight bulls to get the most pounds possible (again making a big difference between prices)...If your breeding a bunch of smaller frames 1st calf heifers, you might want to buy the elite, sure fire calving ease bulls. I could go on and on. On top of that and where things really begin to affect price is when the bull has elite numbers but also looks good - people will pay big $$$ for that. Good question that needs a good answer - there is an absolute difference between a $1700 bull and a 17k bull. A good average price for a yearling bull is 2500-3500 while a decent average for 18month old to 2yr is additive of about $500 to that. That should net an AI sired bull that hits a good mark. Using any old bull regardless of commercial or otherwise usually means calving problems, inconsistency in progeny, bad structure and the list goes on and on. Just like breeding dogs or other animals, the majority of males should not be used for breeding, use of only the better ones should be utilized (lots of backyard breeders breeding pets that should never be allowed to breed them but it happens - albeit to the detriment of the various breeds)

So 1700.00 is bad...2500.00 is automatically ok..... sounds scientific..

 

[CVAR]

Always seemed to me 5 is about the age they figure out how big they are.

So 1700.00 is bad...2500.00 is automatically ok..... sounds scientific..

Scientific? I'd like to call it common sense and understanding of what you're actually doing. There is nothing automatic in agriculture, especially the cattle business (except lots of trials and tribulations - we can all count on that)

 

[callmefence]

Scientific? I'd like to call it common sense and understanding of what you're actually doing. There is nothing automatic in agriculture, especially the cattle business (except lots of trials and tribulations - we can all count on that)

Thanks... just so I understand..in agriculture the more you spend on something the better. ... just so I understand

 

[CVAR]

sounds like you might be getting personally offended. Sorry about that - it was a good question that needed an explanation of why there is such a big spread in seed stock bulls - I only mentioned a few. The cattle business can be really confusing and bad advice is costly. I hope your bulls are working good for you - but unlike your original response, there is a very big difference in breeding stock which causes large swings in pricing.

 

[callmefence]

sounds like you might be getting personally offended. Sorry about that - it was a good question that needed an explanation of why there is such a big spread in seed stock bulls - I only mentioned a few. The cattle business can be really confusing and bad advice is costly. I hope your bulls are working good for you - but unlike your original response, there is a very big difference in breeding stock which causes large swings in pricing.

No sir not offended at all..all though that s what you are obviously shooting for... just waiting for you to answer the question..

 

[WFfarm]

We have commercial cow herd and most always buy registered bulls. Simmental, Angus or sometimes Gelbvieh. We usually pay $2000-2500 US for a yearling bull, use for 3-4 years and sell for slaughter.

 

[CVAR]

Come on buddy - the first question in the post was valid. Yours is silly and you sound a bit like an argumentative debater without much knowledge about what you're debating. If you try to sell your original reply to ANY knowledge cattle person you'll probably get some harsh reactions (but likely, they'll immediately brand you as not knowing what your doing and give you a polite smile and move on.) Send me a real question about the cattle business from a hobbyists perspective and I'll gladly send a legitimate perspective to consider.

 

[callmefence]

Come on buddy - the first question in the post was valid. Yours is silly and you sound a bit like an argumentative debater without much knowledge about what you're debating. If you try to sell your original reply to ANY knowledge cattle person you'll probably get some harsh reactions (but likely, they'll immediately brand you as not knowing what your doing and give you a polite smile and move on.) Send me a real question about the cattle business from a hobbyists perspective and I'll gladly send a legitimate perspective to consider.

Well..ok don't answer the question you raised and call me silly..
Just for grins I took a look... about a dozen or so thought my post was ok...
You do have tux agreeing with you....Im really sorry bout that..

 

[callmefence]

Come on buddy - the first question in the post was valid. Yours is silly and you sound a bit like an argumentative debater without much knowledge about what you're debating. If you try to sell your original reply to ANY knowledge cattle person you'll probably get some harsh reactions (but likely, they'll immediately brand you as not knowing what your doing and give you a polite smile and move on.) Send me a real question about the cattle business from a hobbyists perspective and I'll gladly send a legitimate perspective to consider.

You sell registered Angus..??

Scientific? I'd like to call it common sense and understanding of what you're actually doing. There is nothing automatic in agriculture, especially the cattle business (except lots of trials and tribulations - we can all count on that)

So gloves off buddy..I've noticed you like that word.
Here's some common sense.... every one here has their own opinion. Someone ask about a topic and everyone gives their opinion. Yours is welcomed by me...and I get your side. I don't think mine is bad either.
In fact I say yours is... leading people to believe spending alot on a bull is going to automatically payoff. While it might there is more to it than that.
My point... when the calf goes in the ring, or the steer is graded.... nobody cares how much you paid for your bull. .. common sense.

 

[CVAR]

Good grief, man...Remember when I mentioned the polite smile above, well here's mine
On to the next subject now

 

[callmefence]

C-ya

 

[Silver]

I would have to agree that putting a big price tag on a bull does not make it a better bull. I've seen a lot of (in my opinion) sub standard bulls sell for big dollars.

In my post above I probably should have instead said: One of the most expensive things a commercial guy can do is buy a poor bull.

 

[simme]

So many issues that come into play. I will address a few.

Myth #1. A bull with good EPD's is better than a bull with bad EPD's. EPD's are predictions of genetic merit. People get excited about them and might make decisions on that basis. Just as important as the numbers is the accuracy of the numbers. Great numbers with low accuracy - you really don't know what you have yet. Young bulls generally have low accuracy EPD's. If the whole story were in EPD's, then no one would ever care what a bull looked like, just select for numbers. That is not a good plan. Now, if all else is equal, pick the bull with good numbers. EPD's are not bad, but they are not the whole story. Certainly not the primary selection criteria.

Myth #2. Paying more money will get you a better bull. Or always purchase a higher priced bull. In the big overall picture, there is certainly a relationship. But, the people who buy your calves don't care what your bull cost or pay on that basis. Select and buy a bull that has the qualities you need for your cows and conditions and market. There are still unknowns until you get calves, but price is not the main selection criteria.

Myth #3. You need to use a purebred bull. Crossbred bulls sire calves that are not uniform. That eliminates sim-angus, balancer, beef master, Gert's, etc - all are crossbreeds. Many good calves are sired by crossbred bulls.

Myth #4. Use a young bull. Ship by five years old. Just like cows, keep and use a bull as long as they are doing their job with no signs of issues. It takes a while to prove a bull. Why ship him if he is proven and not showing any signs of problems or causing trouble? Just like a spouse, if they are working out, stick with them.

Myth #5. Never use a home raised bull. Always buy from a "breeder". If you have good cattle for your conditions and market, evaluate your retained bull calves the same as you would any other bull purchase. They may fit your conditions just fine.

Myth #6. Always buy a bull with a high weaning weight or yearling weight or the heaviest bull in the sale. Maybe from a performance bull test with ratings based on ADG and WDA. Tempting, isn't it. Those big fat bulls do look photogenic. Keep in mind that feedlot cattle are fed to a finish condition - not worried about longevity. You don't want a bull fed like a feedlot steer. If your friends are impressed with a fat bull, you need to get some new friends that better understand cattle. That fat is not muscle.

Just giving my thoughts for my area. And stirring the pot, hoping it don't boil over.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

That is really bad advice to someone that is asking a legitimate question. Rather than a right or wrong answer for this, here is what you need to consider. How do you market your calves? If you have bigger numbers (say more than 70'ish) and you retain ownership on those cattle all the way up until they are processed, then paying higher dollars for elite marbling genetics will absolutely pay a difference (unlike callmefence's statement above). If you sell right when you wean, then you don't really care about performance on the rail but you might want to pay for elite weaning weight bulls to get the most pounds possible (again making a big difference between prices)...If your breeding a bunch of smaller frames 1st calf heifers, you might want to buy the elite, sure fire calving ease bulls. I could go on and on. On top of that and where things really begin to affect price is when the bull has elite numbers but also looks good - people will pay big $$$ for that. Good question that needs a good answer - there is an absolute difference between a $1700 bull and a 17k bull. A good average price for a yearling bull is 2500-3500 while a decent average for 18month old to 2yr is additive of about $500 to that. That should net an AI sired bull that hits a good mark. Using any old bull regardless of commercial or otherwise usually means calving problems, inconsistency in progeny, bad structure and the list goes on and on. Just like breeding dogs or other animals, the majority of males should not be used for breeding, use of only the better ones should be utilized (lots of backyard breeders breeding pets that should never be allowed to breed them but it happens - albeit to the detriment of the various breeds)

Excellent explanation. Hope to read more of you in the future.

 

[Brute 23]

I dont see how a person can sell a breeding age bull for less than $2000. That would make me a skeptical.

 

[Warren Allison]

So many issues that come into play. I will address a few.

Myth #1. A bull with good EPD's is better than a bull with bad EPD's. EPD's are predictions of genetic merit. People get excited about them and might make decisions on that basis. Just as important as the numbers is the accuracy of the numbers. Great numbers with low accuracy - you really don't know what you have yet. Young bulls generally have low accuracy EPD's. If the whole story were in EPD's, then no one would ever care what a bull looked like, just select for numbers. That is not a good plan. Now, if all else is equal, pick the bull with good numbers. EPD's are not bad, but they are not the whole story. Certainly not the primary selection criteria.

Myth #2. Paying more money will get you a better bull. Or always purchase a higher priced bull. In the big overall picture, there is certainly a relationship. But, the people who buy your calves don't care what your bull cost or pay on that basis. Select and buy a bull that has the qualities you need for your cows and conditions and market. There are still unknowns until you get calves, but price is not the main selection criteria.

Myth #3. You need to use a purebred bull. Crossbred bulls sire calves that are not uniform. That eliminates sim-angus, balancer, beef master, Gert's, etc - all are crossbreeds. Many good calves are sired by crossbred bulls.

Myth #4. Use a young bull. Ship by five years old. Just like cows, keep and use a bull as long as they are doing their job with no signs of issues. It takes a while to prove a bull. Why ship him if he is proven and not showing any signs of problems or causing trouble? Just like a spouse, if they are working out, stick with them.

Myth #5. Never use a home raised bull. Always buy from a "breeder". If you have good cattle for your conditions and market, evaluate your retained bull calves the same as you would any other bull purchase. They may fit your conditions just fine.

Myth #6. Always buy a bull with a high weaning weight or yearling weight or the heaviest bull in the sale. Maybe from a performance bull test with ratings based on ADG and WDA. Tempting, isn't it. Those big fat bulls do look photogenic. Keep in mind that feedlot cattle are fed to a finish condition - not worried about longevity. You don't want a bull fed like a feedlot steer. If your friends are impressed with a fat bull, you need to get some new friends that better understand cattle. That fat is not muscle.

Just giving my thoughts for my area. And stirring the pot, hoping it don't boil over.

Good advice, but myth #3 not so much. Santa Gertrudis are not cross-breds. They are their own stabilized breed, well -established since the 40's. They have their own DNA. Same thing with Beefmaster, Brangus, Braford, etc. A registered Brangus bull, tested to be homozygous black, will throw a polled, black calf every time . I agree with the myth.. which is in fact a truth, on using a half Brahma -half Angus bull. Half the calves could turn out like a Brahma cross , and half like an Angus cross. If you were gonna use say, a black baldy bull...half Hereford and half Angus, then you may as well use 2 bulls, a Hereford and an Angus. You'd get the same consistency in the calf crop.

 

[callmefence]

So many issues that come into play. I will address a few.

Myth #1. A bull with good EPD's is better than a bull with bad EPD's. EPD's are predictions of genetic merit. People get excited about them and might make decisions on that basis. Just as important as the numbers is the accuracy of the numbers. Great numbers with low accuracy - you really don't know what you have yet. Young bulls generally have low accuracy EPD's. If the whole story were in EPD's, then no one would ever care what a bull looked like, just select for numbers. That is not a good plan. Now, if all else is equal, pick the bull with good numbers. EPD's are not bad, but they are not the whole story. Certainly not the primary selection criteria.

Myth #2. Paying more money will get you a better bull. Or always purchase a higher priced bull. In the big overall picture, there is certainly a relationship. But, the people who buy your calves don't care what your bull cost or pay on that basis. Select and buy a bull that has the qualities you need for your cows and conditions and market. There are still unknowns until you get calves, but price is not the main selection criteria.

Myth #3. You need to use a purebred bull. Crossbred bulls sire calves that are not uniform. That eliminates sim-angus, balancer, beef master, Gert's, etc - all are crossbreeds. Many good calves are sired by crossbred bulls.

Myth #4. Use a young bull. Ship by five years old. Just like cows, keep and use a bull as long as they are doing their job with no signs of issues. It takes a while to prove a bull. Why ship him if he is proven and not showing any signs of problems or causing trouble? Just like a spouse, if they are working out, stick with them.

Myth #5. Never use a home raised bull. Always buy from a "breeder". If you have good cattle for your conditions and market, evaluate your retained bull calves the same as you would any other bull purchase. They may fit your conditions just fine.

Myth #6. Always buy a bull with a high weaning weight or yearling weight or the heaviest bull in the sale. Maybe from a performance bull test with ratings based on ADG and WDA. Tempting, isn't it. Those big fat bulls do look photogenic. Keep in mind that feedlot cattle are fed to a finish condition - not worried about longevity. You don't want a bull fed like a feedlot steer. If your friends are impressed with a fat bull, you need to get some new friends that better understand cattle. That fat is not muscle.

Just giving my thoughts for my area. And stirring the pot, hoping it don't boil over.

Excellent post. Only 2 people care about the cost of your bull. You and the guy who. pockets your money.
Sales 101. Overcharge to imply quality.

 

[Rydero]

So many issues that come into play. I will address a few.

Myth #1. A bull with good EPD's is better than a bull with bad EPD's. EPD's are predictions of genetic merit. People get excited about them and might make decisions on that basis. Just as important as the numbers is the accuracy of the numbers. Great numbers with low accuracy - you really don't know what you have yet. Young bulls generally have low accuracy EPD's. If the whole story were in EPD's, then no one would ever care what a bull looked like, just select for numbers. That is not a good plan. Now, if all else is equal, pick the bull with good numbers. EPD's are not bad, but they are not the whole story. Certainly not the primary selection criteria.

Myth #2. Paying more money will get you a better bull. Or always purchase a higher priced bull. In the big overall picture, there is certainly a relationship. But, the people who buy your calves don't care what your bull cost or pay on that basis. Select and buy a bull that has the qualities you need for your cows and conditions and market. There are still unknowns until you get calves, but price is not the main selection criteria.

Myth #3. You need to use a purebred bull. Crossbred bulls sire calves that are not uniform. That eliminates sim-angus, balancer, beef master, Gert's, etc - all are crossbreeds. Many good calves are sired by crossbred bulls.

Myth #4. Use a young bull. Ship by five years old. Just like cows, keep and use a bull as long as they are doing their job with no signs of issues. It takes a while to prove a bull. Why ship him if he is proven and not showing any signs of problems or causing trouble? Just like a spouse, if they are working out, stick with them.

Myth #5. Never use a home raised bull. Always buy from a "breeder". If you have good cattle for your conditions and market, evaluate your retained bull calves the same as you would any other bull purchase. They may fit your conditions just fine.

Myth #6. Always buy a bull with a high weaning weight or yearling weight or the heaviest bull in the sale. Maybe from a performance bull test with ratings based on ADG and WDA. Tempting, isn't it. Those big fat bulls do look photogenic. Keep in mind that feedlot cattle are fed to a finish condition - not worried about longevity. You don't want a bull fed like a feedlot steer. If your friends are impressed with a fat bull, you need to get some new friends that better understand cattle. That fat is not muscle.

Just giving my thoughts for my area. And stirring the pot, hoping it don't boil over.

A few of these "myths" are things that can go either way based on your circumstances so hardly quality..

I'm really unsure of the logic of picking friends based on bull preferences. I don't give a crap if my friends know anything about cattle, lol.