Making money

[Bestoutwest]

We're getting closer and closer to jumping in here pretty soon, so can someone explain the many ways of making money. The three outlets that I can think of are sale barn, private treaty freezer beef and selling registered breeding stock. I'd like to know the pros and cons of each, if you have the time. I'm trying to maximize my profit (who isn't?), but I can't afford $10K for a cow/calf pair.

Thanks for the help.

 

[3waycross]

go the freezer beef route. you can always eat your mistakes and feed em to others too!

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I may not understand the question exactly right, so this may not be what your looking for.

For selling, Salebarn is good, almost all the time you get a fair deal, and your not guessing weights and cheating yourself or the buyer, like could happen selling off the farm.

If selling bred cows or a good bull, off the farm is not a bad way to do it. You don't have to haul and you have no commision, but who your selling to knows that and genrally will expect some kind of discount because you aren't paying to get them sold. So again, Salebarn is a good option sometimes.

Buying privately can work but often doesn't for me, seems that alot of folks try to make salebarns bad scary places and want to add 10 or 20% to the price, just because they haven't been through the barn.

I know very little about marketing cattle in Idaho, these answers are how I see things here, but may not help you there. What are you wanting to get into as far as cattle? Cows, calves, registered?

 

[Bestoutwest]

Some more questions from the previous reply:
1) To do registered do you have to show to get the name out there, does it help a lot?
2) I have neither a lot of $$ (we're not poor, but not millionaires) nor do we have a big cattle last name. How bad will that hurt us for registered?
3) How important is it to keep track of EPD's for selling seed stock?
4) Finally, I saw a yearling heifer that was in the 'top 5 of her breed' for some trait. How does this work, and how truthful is something like that? How much will that hurt a little guy that I might not ever produce something like this?

The only reason I'm looking at registered is that it would be really nice to sell one for $2K than at the salebarn or as freezer beef for $1K. I think, though, I may be barking up the wrong tree but since we're not $100K into it, I think now is the time to information gather.

 

[M.Magis]

It seems you are new to cattle all together? The registered game probably isn't for you. Those guys are selling animals to the sale barn too, not every calf is suited for seedstock. You have to know how to identify that. Buy a few commercial cows and assume you aren't going to make any profit. That way it's a nice surprise when you do.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I would start with some bred cows or pairs and some small calves to feed. You'll make money and learn alot about more than one side of the business.

 

[Dave]

Depending where you are in Idaho (distance to bigger cities), I would go with the freezer beef. It is easier to develop a market for small numbers. Selling at the sale works but the profit margin isn't great and starting out with smaller numbers the actual total dollars of profit aren't very much. Getting into the registered game without a name behind you is tough at best. Freezer beef.... you will be surprised what those city people will pay for beef that is advertised right.

 

[cowboy43]

If you are up to date on the market and like dealing directly with the public, craigslist is a good outlet for your cattle also you make 4% profit over selling at the sale barn.

 

[snake67]

Some more questions from the previous reply:
1) To do registered do you have to show to get the name out there, does it help a lot?
2) I have neither a lot of $$ (we're not poor, but not millionaires) nor do we have a big cattle last name. How bad will that hurt us for registered?
3) How important is it to keep track of EPD's for selling seed stock?
4) Finally, I saw a yearling heifer that was in the 'top 5 of her breed' for some trait. How does this work, and how truthful is something like that? How much will that hurt a little guy that I might not ever produce something like this?

The only reason I'm looking at registered is that it would be really nice to sell one for $2K than at the salebarn or as freezer beef for $1K. I think, though, I may be barking up the wrong tree but since we're not $100K into it, I think now is the time to information gather.

Quite frankly I believe you might be barking up the wrong tree as a newbie - and that is not meant to be an insult as I do not think I have never read any of your other threads - so I do not know how far along you are.

1. Registered might be nice when you are drinking coffee and telling tales with the boys but in truth if you are just getting going - it is not something that would impress a lot of folks if they are in the know. There are some truly spectacular grade herds and they often make the registered stuff look pretty average. People run registered herds and think everything is worth selling for breeding simply because of papers - when in fact 90% (some might even say more) should be cut, culled or sold for meat. That is how the good guys got their start and kept their name. Most - not all - of the paper I have seen on this site is good for fire starter.

2. Find quality - registered does not guarantee it - in fact it will possibly suck you in big time. Especially if you get some from one of those smooth talkers that tells you it is related to ?????? and has this "such and such" top quality or ability in the blood line.

3. EPD's? You need history and progeny to be accurate - if you start calculating off 10 animals and three youngster each I personally am not interested.

4. I have no idea. It depends. LOL

Sale barns - well, I sold some calves that hit almost a thousand bucks - let me see - had them for less than nine months, put no feed into them, put no vaccines into them, put no doctoring into them, put no nothing into them other than mom, the calf sucking on her tits and some grass - pure profit. Compare that to going the long way.

And remember the risk!

There are so many people that come here and say "Found a dead one today" that it is almost pitiful. Not always, but a lot of the time those deads might be around if the person knew at least a few of the signs to look for. One dead sure takes a toll on your income. Two more and three even more. Watch the threads for the "Should I call a vet?" - get more than one on your speed dial no matter where you are - they tend to come in handy now and then.

We sold the calves and took the money and lost nothing and cut our risk - someone else has them now. Their problem. They have a quality and healthy animal that left here and went somewhere else. I have a pocket full of cash. And THAT is our main objective - might not be yours, but it IS ours. It is a business for us. As long as money coming in exceeds money going out life is good. Be ready for it - it does not always happen that way.

Freezer beef at $1K?

Let me see. 1400 pound animal slaughters out to hang at - depending on the animal, breed and sex at around 800 pounds - some will argue the weight but it is simply an example. Sold at 3 bucks a pound hanging weight is $2400 bucks in my part of the world. More if you are a decent marketer.

I am pretty outspoken on registered stock - there is so much schitte out there that unless you are a pro or you are selling to a newb - you better have your ducks in a row. Plain and simple - it is a game where people have to have their big boy pants on all the time. All you have to do is look on Craigs List at the stuff for sale with papers.

There are at least 20 or more folks on this site that have stellar grade/commercial herds and I would put them up against any registered stuff out there. And there is a lot of knowledge and there is a lot of "I think" knowledge. Best you be aware of that before you sink too much into it.

Start with quality grade and build your business - and never forget this one most important piece of advice.

**********Almost anyone can raise a good cow, bull or calf. Very few have the ability to develop a market to sell into. The market is where the money is - only you have to go to it - it will not come to you!**********

If they did, the sale barns would not be as busy as they are.

Which ever way you decide to go I wish you all the best - but be ready for some serious failure along the way - it happens to everyone so even when you get discouraged - go out back - kick yourself in the azz and get back at it.

Best to all

Bez

 

[3waycross]

Some more questions from the previous reply:
1) To do registered do you have to show to get the name out there, does it help a lot?
2) I have neither a lot of $$ (we're not poor, but not millionaires) nor do we have a big cattle last name. How bad will that hurt us for registered?
3) How important is it to keep track of EPD's for selling seed stock?
4) Finally, I saw a yearling heifer that was in the 'top 5 of her breed' for some trait. How does this work, and how truthful is something like that? How much will that hurt a little guy that I might not ever produce something like this?

The only reason I'm looking at registered is that it would be really nice to sell one for $2K than at the salebarn or as freezer beef for $1K. I think, though, I may be barking up the wrong tree but since we're not $100K into it, I think now is the time to information gather.

Read your PM's. I sent you a phone number you can reach me at. I will be more than happy to educate you on the ups and downs of registered cattle and all that goes with that deal. Then we will see what you know and how well you listen!

 

[bse]

I have both commercial and purebred don't believe for a min that folks on either side wont skin you. go to a purebred sale and just watch then go to the salebarn and just watch the pen hookers just examples. If you go purebred you have a few more marketing options if you can only get that 10% and cut the heads off the other 90% that 10% may put a few more dollars in your pocket, there is paperwork but you need to do that even with commercial so you know what isn't working.
Selling seedstock you don't need a big name you need decent cattle if you have that they will come.it may take time but while your building you can still take them to the salebarn. And whichever you choose find someone you trust to help you along and don't get sucked up in all the hoopla.

 

[Caustic Burno]

It seems you are new to cattle all together? The registered game probably isn't for you. Those guys are selling animals to the sale barn too, not every calf is suited for seedstock. You have to know how to identify that. Buy a few commercial cows and assume you aren't going to make any profit. That way it's a nice surprise when you do.

Good advice.
You need a thick checkbook to play the registered game.
The real question is it thick enough to carry you until your reputation is established.
You are selling your name starting out all you got to do is sell one or two below par and your name is Mudd.

 

[Bestoutwest]

I really appreciate all the information. From what you guys have said, the registered/seed stock game seems quite over my head. Yes, I am new to the cattle game (in this respect anyway) and I have a lot to learn before I'm ready to even think about going that route.

Thanks everyone!

 

[greatgerts]

The registered game won't cost nearly as much if you buy SMART and AI your cows. Yes, we have spent more than we probably should have on a few, but my best calves had been either AI or sired by a $2500 bull. The cows that are producing these top calves, only cost me $1000-$1200 to purchase.

 

[Calhoun Farm]

I'm still a newb in the cattle business and here's what I'm doing (right or wrong I'll learn). I started small, and did a mix-n-match approach. I bought some nice heifers, they are not reg so I have no idea on EPD's etc. They all have good frame scores, good feet, and not crazy, so I bought them. My plan is to AI them this winter and should have calves on the ground by October '14. The other thing I'm doing is raising steers, I keep an eye on craigslist and buy young bulls/steers. Keep them for 6months and send them down the road. I'm just about to send my first load off with one of the steers already up to 650lbs (in 3months) so I'm selling him next week. The market in my area is paying more for 600-699lb than they are for over 700lb so no need in my keeping him any longer. Let me say I'm no pro at this, but I enjoy it and its kind of a family tradition for me. My approach may not net me any money, I may break even who knows. One thing I do do is I keep records, I know when I bought what, how much I paid for it, and how much I sold it for. I also keep records on each one so I know what vaccines they been given and when. Good luck!

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Some more questions from the previous reply:
1) To do registered do you have to show to get the name out there, does it help a lot?
2) I have neither a lot of $$ (we're not poor, but not millionaires) nor do we have a big cattle last name. How bad will that hurt us for registered?
3) How important is it to keep track of EPD's for selling seed stock?
4) Finally, I saw a yearling heifer that was in the 'top 5 of her breed' for some trait. How does this work, and how truthful is something like that? How much will that hurt a little guy that I might not ever produce something like this?

The only reason I'm looking at registered is that it would be really nice to sell one for $2K than at the salebarn or as freezer beef for $1K. I think, though, I may be barking up the wrong tree but since we're not $100K into it, I think now is the time to information gather.

1) No. But it helps.
2) Registered does not cost much more than commercial, and pays off in the end in most cases.
3) You do not keep EPD's, the breed registry does.
4) Top 5 of her breed means her EPD scored in the top 5 percent in one or more EPD's. It is as truthful as the EPDs are. Some breeds, the EPD's are not worth the paper they are written on, some breeds have pretty dependable EPD's. But remember, EPD's are just a piece of the puzzle, not everything. Anyone breeding registered cattle can produce good or bad EPD's, depending on the sire you use and the dam. Know your cattle.

We started breeding registered cattle in 2007. We started with two heifers, and paid $2000 for one and $1500 for the other. Both of those cows are still in our herd, and have made that much money many times over. Our herd is now up to 22 cows that are bred, nursing, or both. We do show our cattle, but it is not necessary if you do not want to. Just about every major breed has a state association, and usually each state has at least one sale a year for their stock. You can even sell your registered stock in other states if you want. We DO NOT use a bull (at least, up to this point we have not). If we had a female that did not take to AI, we found a bull to send them to and usually sold them in a state sale the following year. We are now at a size where we will keep an embryo bull to use for clean up if we have one that does not stick to AI or an embryo. But we are brutal with a knife, and cut most of our bull calves. We are just starting to build our reputation for producing high quality bulls. Our business is producing heifers, not bulls. Our breed association makes it easy to keep records up and cattle registered at a minimum cost, and include the EPDs on all calves. We have NEVER paid more than $2200 for a heifer! The most my daughter ever paid for a cow was a really nice pair for $2500 (this spring). But I put a lot of time in researching EPD's, blood lines, and trends. I know what people want, and pick up "sleepers" in the sales on calves and embryos.
Here is an example of a recent gain for us; we bought a bred heifer in a big name sale with a good pedigree for $1400. 5 months later she has a heifer calf by an AI sire. We put an embryo in her for the next calf, and she had a bull calf. She did not take her embryo the next year (year three with us), so we put our young 10 month old bull on her and she stuck. For us, if they do not stick to AI or embryo, they have to go. We consigned the cow to our state sale (due just weeks after the sale), along with her yearling embryo son and two year old daughter nursing a 30 day old AI bull calf. For our four year investment of $1400, the cow brought $2800, the two year old first calf heifer brought $3000, and the yearling bull brought $2200. I think that was a pretty good turn around. Not all stories are a success, and it has taken us this long to start getting a paycheck twice a year. We always have a few steers to take to the market if I need to get rid of some cattle because my numbers are getting too high. But our first year we had 100% calf loss :shock: Of course, it was only one calf that year, but it hurt. That cow had a calf the next year, which we still have in our herd (the calf, she is my top recip cow and her first daughter is also in the herd), but I sold the original cow because she did not stick to AI. You have to be willing to let the good ones go if they do not breed, and that is our bottom line. They must have a calf every year.
I hope that helped a little. If you do decide to go registered, pick a breed that is NOT saturated in your area. That will help will sales, and give you a better chance of marketing calves. Find places to market your cattle, free is best. I like craigslist, and sell lots of steers and bulls through Craigslist. There are also a lot of free cattle sites out here in the internet where you can market. Your cattle will be what you make of it, and how much input you put in will help determine what you get out. Just my humble opinion, but it works for us.