Making money on cattle

[msscamp]

It puzzles me why people fiqure they have to own the land they run cattle on.Can you not lease land down there and be better off.I have got some leased land here for next to nothing ,compared to buying it.Not fantastic land ,(9 acres to a pr) but still pencils out to only $9.00 cdn a cow/ calf pair per yr.

Make some money on them cows and get some cash flow started 1st

The biggest problem I can see with a lease, is that the owners can always jerk that lease out from under you. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't, but if it does, where are you going to go with those cows?

I have a 33yr written lease.I also get paid fair market value for any improvements that I put in as well at the end of it.it also has a formula for rental increase written into it.

You are better protected than a lot, but what happens if the lessor dies? Is that covered as well? Or goes bankrupt? Or gets foreclosed on? You are SOL.

 

[frenchie]

It puzzles me why people fiqure they have to own the land they run cattle on.Can you not lease land down there and be better off.I have got some leased land here for next to nothing ,compared to buying it.Not fantastic land ,(9 acres to a pr) but still pencils out to only $9.00 cdn a cow/ calf pair per yr.

Make some money on them cows and get some cash flow started 1st

The biggest problem I can see with a lease, is that the owners can always jerk that lease out from under you. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't, but if it does, where are you going to go with those cows?

I have a 33yr written lease.I also get paid fair market value for any improvements that I put in as well at the end of it.it also has a formula for rental increase written into it.

You are better protected than a lot, but what happens if the lessor dies? Is that covered as well? Or goes bankrupt? Or gets foreclosed on? You are SOL.

msscamp....Its a goverment lease

 

[dun]

Its a goverment lease

I sure hope they don;t screw up the gov leases up there like they have in places in the US!

dun

 

[dane12]

Why is everyone tying the land payment in with the cows? What if you just wanted to buy a piece of land for investment, or better yet, as I did, just got fed up with living in the city and wanted to buy a large piece of property? I would still have the land payment whether I decided to raise cattle or raise pigs or peaches. One of the reasons I bought where I did was because of the rising land values, which have only gone up and up each yr. Are you saying that you have more than $500 in each calf you sell? Or rather $400, since you're only making $100 a hd?Does it really cost you $400 a pr for hay/feed/vacs and such? Sure, you have to build your facilities, but after a couple yrs, most of your infastructure, i.e. pens, corrals and such, will be mostly completed. After that, it's mostly repairing, and replacing the pieces which cant be repaired, which around my place are few and far between. I, as most of my neighbors do, tend to repair everything we can before spending any money to replace. My tractor? I had to have a tractor before I had my cows. My grass still needed to be brushhogged and drives still needed to be cut. The tractor didnt have anything to do with the cows.
I am making good money off my cows. I use my day job to pay for the land, house, tractor and everything else I do around here. All of which I would still have rather I had cows or not. So therefore, I am calling BS on you guys with the paid for land, paid for equipment and such and claim you aren't making any money. I try to run my business as close as I can to breakeven, mainly for tax reasons, but that breakeven scenario sometimes forces me to buy new trucks and give bonuses at the end of the year. Sometimes not making any money gives one a pretty nice lifestyle!

i could not agree with you more.i am akind of doing the same thing besides i am leasing for my cows and is raising horses at home.my long term plan is to buy land and live there and raise cattle no matter what you have to live and pay rent or a mortage somewhere at least we can make a few bucks of the land.i have only had cows for 4 years but i have never lost money a matter of fact it pays for my truck and my tractor not a bad deal at all

 

[frenchie]

I sure hope they don;t screw up the gov leases up there like they have in places in the US!

dun

As long as the tree huggers don,t get involved we have a chance.

 

[jcissell]

ok I stopped really reading post a few pages back so I don't really know what all was said. But I do know ya'll are saying he couldn't get anyone to loan him the money for the cows and land. You also said no bank would put cows, land, and whatever else into one loan. You're wrong. The FSA will. First time farmers loan to be exact. You can borrow up to $800,000 for a capital loan and another large sum for operating expenses. Maybe like $300,000 I can't remember. That's over a million with no experience and all on 2 loans. Capital and expense.

Now on you guys saying you don't make any money. I just haven't seen it yet where you can't make money. I know bad decisions and prices can but with the current market surely you guys are making more than $9,500 on 100 hd. You say if your figure in your labor it brings it down but if you REALLY figure your labor it probably goes up. I know ALOT of farmers that say they work from 6am to 9pm everyday. But they really get breakfast and sit around and talk until about 7:30 then drive around and look at their crops and other farmer's crops until 9:00am. Then work for a while, eat lunch, work some more, talk to other farmers some and bs for the rest of the evening. And they only do that for the summer months. from the end of Nov to March they sleep late, hunt, and socialize at the nearest john deere dealership or coffeeshop. And yes, they all have new 2500s or f250s every couple of years, really nice houses, vacations to colorado and florida, and spend tons of money. Their kids and spouses all have nice cars/trucks also.

When a farmer says they didn't make any money they just didn't make $300,000 extra after their loan was payed off. They forget they pay themselves $100,000 a year through their loan. I guess its just different here in the delta in Arkansas and Mississippi. Maybe you people in the rest of the country don't make any money. But then again, aren't I in the poorest area of the country?

Back to the time cattle farmers actually spend working. What do you guys do to have to work 8 hours a day everyday with cows? We have to work long days on Saturday and Sunday b/c we have several things that have to be done that we haven't taken care of in the last few years and we have to work all day during the week at our normal job. But if I only raised commercial cattle that were sold once a year. I don't think I would have to work a full 40 hours every week. I know sometimes there are long hours but for the most part. Its pretty forgiving on when you have to work.

heh here comes my chewing

 

[jcissell]

oh yeh... I'm not saying you can make a really good living just on solely selling commercial cattle. But I'm also not saying you can't. But it doesn't take up all your time so you can do other things to make money. Such as: be a buyer for someone, haul cattle, or anything else that can make money.

 

[frenchie]

ok I stopped really reading post a few pages back so I don't really know what all was said. But I do know ya'll are saying he couldn't get anyone to loan him the money for the cows and land. You also said no bank would put cows, land, and whatever else into one loan. You're wrong. The FSA will.

Just because someone will give you the money, does,nt mean you should take it.

Now on you guys saying you don't make any money. I just haven't seen it yet where you can't make money. I know bad decisions and prices can but with the current market surely you guys are making more than $9,500 on 100 hd.

and the current market prices will last how long :?:

.

I know ALOT of farmers that say they work from 6am to 9pm everyday. But they really get breakfast and sit around and talk until about 7:30 then drive around and look at their crops and other farmer's crops until 9:00am. Then work for a while, eat lunch, work some more, talk to other farmers some and bs for the rest of the evening. And they only do that for the summer months. from the end of Nov to March they sleep late, hunt, and socialize at the nearest john deere dealership or coffeeshop. And yes, they all have new 2500s or f250s every couple of years, really nice houses, vacations to colorado and florida, and spend tons of money. Their kids and spouses all have nice cars/trucks also.

:roll:

.

When a farmer says they didn't make any money they just didn't make $300,000 extra after their loan was payed off. They forget they pay themselves $100,000 a year through their loan. I guess its just different here in the delta in Arkansas and Mississippi. Maybe you people in the rest of the country don't make any money. But then again, aren't I in the poorest area of the country?.

You don,t have a clue as to what operatings costs can run a bizness.

.

Back to the time cattle farmers actually spend working. What do you guys do to have to work 8 hours a day everyday with cows? We have to work long days on Saturday and Sunday b/c we have several things that have to be done that we haven't taken care of in the last few years and we have to work all day during the week at our normal job. But if I only raised commercial cattle that were sold once a year. I don't think I would have to work a full 40 hours every week. I know sometimes there are long hours but for the most part. Its pretty forgiving on when you have to work..

I suppose those cows just feed themselves .

 

[msscamp]

I suppose those cows just feed themselves .

Gee Frenchie, aren't you acquainted with the feed fairy? Not only do the feed fairies feed the cattle, they also make sure you have an endless supply of feed for said cattle - be it grass or whatever is required for your particular operation. They also monitor your pastures and move the cows from pasture to satisfy the rotational requirements if you have put them in place. And their cousins (the fence fairies) make sure you have a majic wand that keeps the wires on every fence from breaking or sagging, and also prevents posts from rotting off or breaking. The same wand also makes boards, nails, and staples popping a thing of the past! I could have sworn you knew the little dance that kept the hayfields swathed, baled, and stacked, and the weeds just quit growing with the special words, in fact they actually reverse growth and are replaced with good grass! And then there is the brandnations routine that makes brands appear and summons the gnomes to do all of the vaccinations and worming while you sleep. You didn't know about all this? :shock:

 

[jcissell]

wow msscamp... All those things you said don't have to be taken care of everyday all day. If you take care of your fences your shouldn't require much fencing everyday. Most days you could probably get away without doing any. Also feeding? How long can that possibly take? 6 hours? Yes haying season takes alot of time but other than that what does? Monitoring pastures? I'm sure that takes a hole hour to drive and look at the grass and the grass doesn't just change overnight so this isn't an everyday thing. There are times when long hours have to be done. But it isn't a 365 day a year thing like most people in this country have to do. How many head of cattle do you have? You mean you can't get all the vaccinations and worming done in a few days. If you have a large herd I could see it taking you a week or two, but that's twice a year. I know it takes work to run cattle, but my point is that it isn't really a steady 8 to 12 hour job everyday like everyone else does.

Frenchie.... I didn't say he should take the money. I just said he could get it and everyone was saying he couldn't.

You notice I said "with the current market." That's right we don't know how long the current prices will last but don't act like you don't make money right now. In the last 2 to 3 years I have seen tons of cattle farmers driving the big new trucks and with trailers also. When before the market wasn't too great they drove the older diesels.

Also when I say farmers here in the delta, I mean row crop farmers. And yes I know what operating costs can run a business. My dad ran his corp. for 28 years and I was in on a lot of the paper work and the business end. My best friend farms and when they plant cotton they put $25,000 in the ground everyday for 2 weeks. They also spend 1.6 million on equipment every year. Last year after all their loans were paid, they cleared 1.2 million. But they do farm 8000 acres. My uncle, on the other hand, did like $30,000 of remodeling to his house, bought 2 f250s, and a loaded fourrunner last year. Your telling me he didn't make any money. All of the farmers here are spending money like that. You tell me they aren't making money and I'll throw a BS flag out on that one.

I know cattle farmers are different. Not near the money in it. But I still think you can make more of a living than what you say.

Oh yeah.... lets not forget all the new boats, fourwheelers, jetskis, country club memberships, guns, hunting trips, and lake houses that my friends that farm have also.

 

[Bez]

How can I argue with this logic?

I am rich and I have cash to burn. I have never had a cheque come into this place for more than $50K when it was not immediately followed by a bill for $52K.

I have too much time on my hands, so I take every weekend off - coffee with the boys every day untill 1000 hours. I never miss a meal and I am certainly not working past 6 p.m. - my union does not allow it - unless I make time and a half!

I have at least a half million in the bank and no loans to worry about, so I know my kids will make the university f their choice.

Yesterday I sat by the big ceeement pond and watched the neighbouring farmers and their families bbq and drink my beer.

It's a fiinnne life indeed.

Bez

 

[Crowderfarms]

Jcisell, With all due respect, you are talking about the "Agricultural Big Dogs". How many people here are farming or Ranching 8,000 acres? Very Few. I remember when I was a kid, Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butts, said "get big or get out". I don't make my living with Cattle, but they are a good supplement for our income.Even if someone offered me a million dollars for capital, to get bigger, I would not think of going into debt, and the long sleepless nights, walking the Floor, trying to figure how I was going to pay it back.And believe it or not, I could spend 8-10 hours a day improving and re-improving Barns, Fences, Corrals,and many other projects on our 2 farms.Unfotunately, I have to have my day Job, to help support it all. The money you used to be able to make on the farm as a single occupation are gone. IMHO. Unless, you have a huge spread. Bought and Paid for.

 

[SF]

Looks like opinions do vary a little on this subject.

 

[bigbull338]

framing or ranching isnt a joke . when i was 15 id pull 5hrs a day . an 8 10hr days or more . so i know the hrs thats put in .reading that just burns me up. so im not going to say nothing . scott

 

[frenchie]

I suppose those cows just feed themselves .

Gee Frenchie, aren't you acquainted with the feed fairy? Not only do the feed fairies feed the cattle, they also make sure you have an endless supply of feed for said cattle - be it grass or whatever is required for your particular operation. They also monitor your pastures and move the cows from pasture to satisfy the rotational requirements if you have put them in place. And their cousins (the fence fairies) make sure you have a majic wand that keeps the wires on every fence from breaking or sagging, and also prevents posts from rotting off or breaking. The same wand also makes boards, nails, and staples popping a thing of the past! I could have sworn you knew the little dance that kept the hayfields swathed, baled, and stacked, and the weeds just quit growing with the special words, in fact they actually reverse growth and are replaced with good grass! And then there is the brandnations routine that makes brands appear and summons the gnomes to do all of the vaccinations and worming while you sleep. You didn't know about all this? :shock:

I got to get some of these feed fairies.I have been working way too hard.

 

[frenchie]

You notice I said "with the current market." That's right we don't know how long the current prices will last but don't act like you don't make money right now. In the last 2 to 3 years I have seen tons of cattle farmers driving the big new trucks and with trailers also. When before the market wasn't too great they drove the older diesels. .

I would not know about your current Market prices

.

All of the farmers here are spending money like that. You tell me they aren't making money and I'll throw a BS flag out on that one.

I know cattle farmers are different. Not near the money in it. But I still think you can make more of a living than what you say.

Oh yeah.... lets not forget all the new boats, fourwheelers, jetskis, country club memberships, guns, hunting trips, and lake houses that my friends that farm have also.

There is an old saying around here There is no sense being poor and looking poor.

 

[bigbull338]

id love to have some cattle penning ferries. or the fence builder ferries. scott

 

[Tod Dague]

Okay I decided not to go :idea: out and buy 100 head of cattle. I assure you if I had that kind of cash I would be buying real estate like everbody else in Fl.
I was just trying to get an idea on the money side of the cattle business and the post was very hypothetical. I do own the land out right so there is no dedt there and I make my income from the construction biz and I am just looking to slow down and raise my family in a better environment than the big lights of Orlando.
And yes I am going to start out real slow since I no nothing about the cattle business just like I knew nothing about the construction biz 30 years ago.

Since you own the land out right you don't want it to just sit there doing nothing for you either. Have you looked into starting with stockers? Start with just a few the first go around, say 20 and put at least 200 lbs. on them before selling. Only have stock on your place if you have grass to feed them. Feeding hay to stockers is a loosing propasition. Keep from suplimenting them if you can get away from it. It is ok if they are gaining slow as long as they are gaining. I would weight my calves every so often. This will help you develop your eye for sick calves. Do not take a loan, and stay away from the large #1s. This will give you a pretty good idea as to what to expect and what you will need. Once your facilities (sick pens, working pens, cross fencing, water) and vaccination plans are in order you can start expanding. As you expand never finance more than 75% of your calves and finance less and less with each new crop. Once your cattle are paid for you can then invest in 3 in ones once the market has hit bottom, again start slow. Don't just sell all the calves and buy what you can with the money you have. The replacement cow market tends to not drop off with calf prices at first then the bottom drops out about the same time calf prices hit bottom as people start getting out of their loosing proposition. Just a suggestion.

 

[dun]

id love to have some cattle penning ferries. or the fence builder ferries. scott

Specially the fence builder pasture managment fairys for me. Then maybe I could become a fishin and huntin fairy for someone.

dun

 

[eric]

id love to have some cattle penning ferries. or the fence builder ferries. scott

We must have some of them fairies around here because my place stays together and I probably dont average 10 extra hrs a week, yr round. I got one full time job already, dont need another. Granted, I may work all weekend, Sat and Sunday, a few times a yr mending fences and corrals/pens and such, but even with hauling hay and feeding, it still isnt 500 hrs a yr.

Nowadays, with good grass and pens in shape, I probably spend 30 mins feeding them some cubes a couple days a week, checking minerals and waterlines/troughs, but thats about it. In wintertime, I have to put out round bales a couiple times a week, but that doesnt take long. Now if you count the time I spend looking at the cows/calves, and talking to them, then thats another story. I put in many a hr just sitting on the back porch or 4 wheeler and watching them graze, watching the new calves play and jump and hop around! But then we'd be on the back porch anyways, whether we had cows or not.