lumps on neck

[preston39]

What has operation size got to do with treating animals correctly?

It has to do with time, preston. Time that it takes to complete your processing. The more you've got to do, the longer it takes. I'm sure that even you can figure that one out, right? Processing time is an important factor in how calves respond to vaccines because of stress, preston. Not to mention the respiratory irritants like dust that increase with that time. You take all the time you want to with yours, preston. But for me, I prefer to get my last calf out of the chute and turned out in a clean grass trap as close as I can to when the first one leaves the chute. But, if you like having your calves standing around breathing all the dust and being under stress longer, you can ass around and thump syringes all you want to.

It's my position that except for volumes of trapped air large enough to affect dosages or push vaccine back out the injection site, it does not matter if you inject a few air bubbles with a vaccine. Do you possess credible research to the contrary? I've already asked you once to produce it and you haven't. I'll keep waiting. Anyway, if you have volumes of trapped air large enough to affect dosages, you need to work on drawing technique and purge that air before you start.

I can see by your comments you don't normally think...why this time? Who ask you to think? If you don't like the idea..skip it. why the comments?

I made the comments because you gave out wrong information, preston. A "micro" of air, as you stated initially, never has caused injection site knots for me and many others. If you have research to prove differently, I'd like to see it. In fact, I need to see it.

I don't care how big or small an operation is animals should be treated right. Putting air into their system is not right.

We can certainly agree that animals should always be treated right, preston. But putting a few air bubbles in with a vaccine isn't wrong, as you suggest. If you want to be that meticulous about your technique, that's fine. I don't care what you do. But I contend that it's unnecessary to do that and that it doesn't hurt anything to get a few air bubbles under the skin. How do you suggest we keep air out from under the skin when using implants, preston?

Learn how to do it because you apparently don't know how.

Teach me something, preston. Show me the research to help me learn, please. Teach me to be a syringe-thumping cattleman just like you. While pens full of calves watch me through the dust, wondering how much longer this is gonna take. LOL Get real, preston. Those few seconds might not matter to the first calf, or even the tenth calf. But when you do enough of them, you have wasted a Helluva lot of time. Work 'em and get 'em turned out. You'll be rewarded with healthier calves, in my opinion.

===========
You obviously have a multi-tasking problem. Ask your vet.

 

[Wewild]

===========
You obviously have a multi-tasking problem. Ask your vet.

Since you can't find anything to copy and paste ... as you usually do...., why continue to attack when you can't defend your postion.

Texan has probably given more shots than his vet. If he even has one. He has stated he and others have not seen what you have said.

I haven't seen it either. I know we have injected micro's of air. A'int much way around it.

 

[Scotty]

I'll get in the middle. I thump and push all visible air out. Some times I get lumps sometime I don't. I asked my vet and my neighbor who has rasied cattle the last 60 years. Both said they wouldn't worry about "microscopic" air. Work your cattle how ever you want. I like to do it one at a time, yet I feel I can do it fast enough to cause little stress as posible. My beef is you telling people that they are dumb and don't know crap becasue you disagree.


Scotty

 

[Texan]

You obviously have a multi-tasking problem.

I'm sure you're right about that, preston. I'll try to work on that when I don't have anything else to do........

Ask your vet.

I had an even better idea, preston. Instead of asking my vet, I thought I would ask your vet. But, since I don't know exactly who your vet is, I just had to settle for the University of Kentucky. Close enough? So, when I had a little free time (or you could call it multi-tasking), I checked out the Kentucky BQA site. As I'm sure you're aware, BQA stand for Beef Quality Assurance. They have a keen interest in things like injection site reactions.

BTW, you guys sure have a good webpage for your BQA program. Concise and to the point. Some good information, like all state BQA pages, but yours is really easier to read than some I've seen. Not as overwhelming as some of them seem to be. I would encourage everybody to take a look at it. Might even be worth a bookmark.

I provided a link to the page, but copied and pasted the only thing I could find about air in syringes. It was in the "Administering Drugs Properly" section, about halfway down the page. And it just talked about air causing wrong dosages or leaks (we already talked about that, remember?). No mention of "micros" causing knots, or bubbles causing knots, or even thumping syringes to keep from having knots. I would have expected them to caution everyone about the bubbles if they really considered it a problem. Anyway, here is what I found in my multi-tasking assignment:


"Administering Drugs Properly

Get the air out of syringes.

* After filling the syringe, pump it enough to move the vaccine up to the needle tip. This will ensure that there is no air trapped in the syringe.
* Air trapped in a syringe can be injected with the vaccine, causing the wrong dosage to be administered or the vaccine to leak from the injection site."

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/id/id140/id140.htm



Again, no mention of "micros" of air causing knots. Or bubbles causing knots. Or thumping syringes to keep from having knots. Guess I'm not the only one who doesn't share your concerns over "micros" of air? Seems to me that the University of Kentucky doesn't consider injecting small amounts of air to be an important factor in injection site knots, either.

I've been patiently waiting for you to provide us with some research about the "micro" of air causing knots, preston. I know you didn't just make that up, so I was hoping that you could share with the rest of us. I'd really like to read up on it to see if it's something that I need to consider. But apparently, you're not going to cough it up. So, unless you can provide something else of value, or have more questions/comments for me, this ends this discussion as far as I'm concerned, preston. If you and everyone else want to thump your syringes to purge every last bubble of air, that is your business and is certainly fine with me. I admire your attention to detail (as well as your multi-tasking).

You know preston, some of these new guys try really, really hard to do everything just right. Just like the vet showed them, or just like they read up on. I just happen to think that it's wrong for you to give out misinformation that will have some of them second-guessing themselves over little things like that. Wondering if they got every last air bubble out because their calves have knots after a vaccination? So they try even harder next time, think they've got all the bubbles out, and end up with knots again? They don't really need that extra frustration when trying to do things right, do they? Different products have different reactions in different individuals. It happens, preston. Air or no air.

 

[Bama]

A SQ shot shouldn't be a problem with a "little" air mixed in. I just kinda pull it, push it till the medication reaches the top, then stick it. On a IM shot I tend to be a little more cautious - I sometimes thump it before sticking. If a air bubble hits a vein and is carried back to the heart it "can" be a problem. Course the meds in a vein can be a problem also. I agree to get it all over with as quickly as possible, especially if it is hot and dusty.

 

[certherfbeef]

If a air bubble hits a vein and is carried back to the heart it "can" be a problem.

Ohio State University vet told me it will talk a 120cc air "bubble" to drop a bovine.

 

[Bama]

If a air bubble hits a vein and is carried back to the heart it "can" be a problem.

Ohio State University vet told me it will talk a 120cc air "bubble" to drop a bovine.

Wow! thanks for the clarification. I was going on my EMT training as in humans. I never really pay it much attention. I always try to avoid veins though. If possible I stick em while in the alley. I have a catwalk where I can stand over them and reach down and grab the skin and pull out and stick. If IM I just stick it down into the muscle and wait a second to see if I get any blood and shoot. I have to admit I don't always draw back on the needle to check for blood to make sure I ain't in a vein.

 

[preston39]

You obviously have a multi-tasking problem.

I'm sure you're right about that, preston. I'll try to work on that when I don't have anything else to do........

Ask your vet.

I had an even better idea, preston. Instead of asking my vet, I thought I would ask your vet. But, since I don't know exactly who your vet is, I just had to settle for the University of Kentucky. Close enough? So, when I had a little free time (or you could call it multi-tasking), I checked out the Kentucky BQA site. As I'm sure you're aware, BQA stand for Beef Quality Assurance. They have a keen interest in things like injection site reactions.

BTW, you guys sure have a good webpage for your BQA program. Concise and to the point. Some good information, like all state BQA pages, but yours is really easier to read than some I've seen. Not as overwhelming as some of them seem to be. I would encourage everybody to take a look at it. Might even be worth a bookmark.

I provided a link to the page, but copied and pasted the only thing I could find about air in syringes. It was in the "Administering Drugs Properly" section, about halfway down the page. And it just talked about air causing wrong dosages or leaks (we already talked about that, remember?). No mention of "micros" causing knots, or bubbles causing knots, or even thumping syringes to keep from having knots. I would have expected them to caution everyone about the bubbles if they really considered it a problem. Anyway, here is what I found in my multi-tasking assignment:


"Administering Drugs Properly

Get the air out of syringes.

* After filling the syringe, pump it enough to move the vaccine up to the needle tip. This will ensure that there is no air trapped in the syringe.
* Air trapped in a syringe can be injected with the vaccine, causing the wrong dosage to be administered or the vaccine to leak from the injection site."

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/id/id140/id140.htm



Again, no mention of "micros" of air causing knots. Or bubbles causing knots. Or thumping syringes to keep from having knots. Guess I'm not the only one who doesn't share your concerns over "micros" of air? Seems to me that the University of Kentucky doesn't consider injecting small amounts of air to be an important factor in injection site knots, either.

I've been patiently waiting for you to provide us with some research about the "micro" of air causing knots, preston. I know you didn't just make that up, so I was hoping that you could share with the rest of us. I'd really like to read up on it to see if it's something that I need to consider. But apparently, you're not going to cough it up. So, unless you can provide something else of value, or have more questions/comments for me, this ends this discussion as far as I'm concerned, preston. If you and everyone else want to thump your syringes to purge every last bubble of air, that is your business and is certainly fine with me. I admire your attention to detail (as well as your multi-tasking).

You know preston, some of these new guys try really, really hard to do everything just right. Just like the vet showed them, or just like they read up on. I just happen to think that it's wrong for you to give out misinformation that will have some of them second-guessing themselves over little things like that. Wondering if they got every last air bubble out because their calves have knots after a vaccination? So they try even harder next time, think they've got all the bubbles out, and end up with knots again? They don't really need that extra frustration when trying to do things right, do they? Different products have different reactions in different individuals. It happens, preston. Air or no air.

=========
texan,
When I have a little time I will share references of info for u. since you have taken a constructive approach, which is appreciated.

You are correct the newbies need proper information and that's what I gave them. I never said air was the only cause of knots.

 

[preston39]

texan, et al,

This is from Pfizer which represents the guidance in general.

Pfizer Animal Health US
Beef Health Management

Beef Friendly™ Guide: Safe and Effective Vaccine Administration

Beef producers can help ensure that consumers enjoy beef products that are consistently safe, tender and healthy. The tips in our handy Beef Friendly Guide help you to minimize the risk of drug residues and injection-site blemishes that cause damage to the carcass.

Every producer has the opportunity and the responsibility to take steps to ensure that the beef we eat is safe, wholesome and tender. Pfizer's Beef Friendly program provides resources to help cattle producers establish a BQA program for their own operation.

Benefits include improved animal welfare, avoidance of drug residues and quality defects, lower production costs, and increased awareness of food safety concerns.

Pfizer has taken a leadership role in supporting and promoting BQA efforts. We have made significant investments in producer education materials – brochures, wall charts, videos and slide presentations – to emphasize the importance of quality in beef production. And we've changed our product labels to include Beef Friendly recommendations and instructions for product administration.

Here are some tips to help you maintain these high vaccination standards:



Select the right products


Choose only federally licensed products backed by full company support




Don't combine vaccines


Use only approved combinations


Read the label. Read and follow these instructions:


Dosage


Timing


Route of administration


Warnings


Storage


Withdrawal period


Disposal


Shelf life


Indications


Use transfer needles to fully reconstitute products


Don't mix too much


Mix enough vaccine for only one hour or less to obtain maximum effectiveness


Don't save leftover vaccine for later use


Keep mixing. Shake large, multi-dose vaccine bottles from time to time so contents don't settle.


Mark and separate syringes


Use different syringes for modified-live vaccines and killed vaccines


Mark the syringes with paint or tape to keep them separate


Don't use disinfectants with MLV vaccines


Use only hot water for cleaning modified-live vaccine syringes


Get the air out


Pump syringe gently to release air and bring vaccine to needle tip


Gather and restrain animals properly


Select the best route


Subcutaneous (SC), under the skin, is the preferred route whenever possible


Products labeled IM (in the muscle) should be given in the neck


Choose the best site


Keep all injections ahead of the shoulder


Neck is the preferred site


Never inject into the top butt




Choose the right needle


16 or 18 gauge


1" to 1 ½" long




Use proper injection technique


Give SC injection into skin at an angle or into a fold of skin that's pulled away from the body


Administer IM injections with appropriate size needle


Keep injection sites at least 4" apart




Place implants properly


Place on back of ear, between skin and cartilage in the middle third of the ear


Avoid hide damage


Avoid large brands or other inappropriate branding


Sanitation is essential


Don't go back into the vaccine bottle with the same needle you use to vaccinate


Change needles frequently (at least every 10 to 15 uses)


Discard damaged needles


Use disposable needles


Avoid dirty or wet injection sites


Clean transfer needles regularly with hot water


Disinfect needle between injections when using killed vaccine



Back to top


entire article (printer friendly)


Copyright 2004 - Pfizer, Inc."
============
If you would like to read the origional it can be found at;

http://www.pfizerah.com/print_friendly. ... health.asp
=========
Removing air from the syringe is so basic to good animal husbandry I don't see the need for further reflection. My last post on the subect.

Yes. Copying and pasting saves a lot of time. Don't feel bligated to apologize for your uninformed remarks. Your lack of knowledge is understood by all.

 

[Wewild]

Get the air out



Yes. Copying and pasting saves a lot of time. Don't feel bligated to apologize for your uninformed remarks. Your lack of knowledge is understood by all.

Now, Now Preston. I've never seen you so feisty even though your standing purty much on the same footing you always do; however, I still didn't see where it referenced micros of air and knots. Did you mean for it too? Texan's post referenced why you might want to get excess air out.

That was a very enlightening copy and paste on your part. I think I summarized it for you.

As for the apology ... in all the time you been here and all the bad info you've dished out, one has never been forth coming. I see no reason that you might rise up and change your colors ...