Low Birth Weight Question

[branguscowgirl]

More common than not, my Brangus calve 90-100lbs. Unassisted.
The only cow I have ever helped in 14 years, (and probably did not need to) was one first calf heifer. She was pretty restless so I just hurried things up for her.

That's pretty stout birth weights for Brangus..

Have you seen the pictures of my cows? :lol: :mrgreen: :hide:

 

[Taurus]

3waycross is right about low birthweight equals low WW and you don't want use a low BW bull on mature cows because the calves will be 50-100lbs lighter than the average BW bulls at weaning time. Made a mistake on using a low BW bull on few mature cows and all heifers and ended up got dinks out of mature cows so we decided to using average BW bull on heifers this summer just like we did few times in past.

 

[Oldtimer]

3waycross is right about low birthweight equals low WW and you don't want use a low BW bull on mature cows because the calves will be 50-100lbs lighter than the average BW bulls at weaning time. Made a mistake on using a low BW bull on few mature cows and all heifers and ended up got dinks out of mature cows so we decided to using average BW bull on heifers this summer just like we did few times in past.

But when you calve on pasture with little or no supervision- moderate BW (70-75lbs) calves can often survive even bad birth presentation problems (ex. backwards or breach) where with the heavier weights you may end up with a dead calf and possibly a dead calf and cow... I watched many - and my Vet claims he believes there are way more than we know bad presentations that handle themselves as long as the calf is not too large... He also claims one of the things that cause many bad presentations is too big of calves (or too fat of cows) that doesn't allow the calf to flip around and get into the normal presentation position...

I'm still one that believes you make money from the higher live calf percentage which comes from low/moderate BW calves that live- then the big BW calves that more often don't... Especially now in this age when a calf that weans at 400 lb is worth $1500-$1600-- and a dead calf is still worth nothing...

 

[Taurus]

3waycross is right about low birthweight equals low WW and you don't want use a low BW bull on mature cows because the calves will be 50-100lbs lighter than the average BW bulls at weaning time. Made a mistake on using a low BW bull on few mature cows and all heifers and ended up got dinks out of mature cows so we decided to using average BW bull on heifers this summer just like we did few times in past.

But when you calve on pasture with little or no supervision- moderate BW (70-75lbs) calves can often survive even bad birth presentation problems (ex. backwards or breach) where the heavier weights you end up with a dead calf and possibly a dead calf and cow... I watched many- and my Vet claims he believes there are way more than we know bad presentations that handle themselves as long as the calf is not too large...

I'm still one that believes you make money from the higher live calf percentage which comes from low/moderate BW calves that live- then the big BW calves that more often don't... Especially now in this age when a calf that weans at 400 lb is worth $1500-$1600-- and a dead calf is still worth nothing...

Never had any issues with using average BW bulls on heifers and cows for years. Except a freaky 120lbs calf, the rest of calves are 80-90lbs and never lost a calf in a birth for years except that freaky breech birth two years ago but it was 70lbs heifer calf..... A 400lbs calf may bring $1,300-1,500 but 500-700lbs calves can easily fetched $1,500-1,800.

 

[Andyva]

I think that besides the low birthweight, low WW connection, there is some connection to maternal calving ease. Live calf is nice until you have to keep it as a replacement heifer and it dies having a calf. The place to use low birthweight bulls is if, say, you buy a herd of heifers and want to make sure they are ok the first time. Probably should sell all of those calves, though. Used to be low birth weight was less than 90. Then it was less than 80. Enough people keep heifers out of these 60 pound birthweight bulls and it's going to keep on 'til you have to have a 30 pound birthweight bull or you'll have calving trouble.

 

[Oldtimer]

3waycross is right about low birthweight equals low WW and you don't want use a low BW bull on mature cows because the calves will be 50-100lbs lighter than the average BW bulls at weaning time. Made a mistake on using a low BW bull on few mature cows and all heifers and ended up got dinks out of mature cows so we decided to using average BW bull on heifers this summer just like we did few times in past.

But when you calve on pasture with little or no supervision- moderate BW (70-75lbs) calves can often survive even bad birth presentation problems (ex. backwards or breach) where the heavier weights you end up with a dead calf and possibly a dead calf and cow... I watched many- and my Vet claims he believes there are way more than we know bad presentations that handle themselves as long as the calf is not too large...

I'm still one that believes you make money from the higher live calf percentage which comes from low/moderate BW calves that live- then the big BW calves that more often don't... Especially now in this age when a calf that weans at 400 lb is worth $1500-$1600-- and a dead calf is still worth nothing...

Never had any issues with using average BW bulls on heifers and cows for years. Except a freaky 120lbs calf, the rest of calves are 80-90lbs and never lost a calf in a birth for years except that freaky breech birth two years ago but it was 70lbs heifer calf..... A 400lbs calf may bring $1,300-1,500 but 500-700lbs calves can easily fetched $1,500-1,800.

Yep-- and according to the AAA the average BW for angus cattle in 2013 was 74 for heifers- 78 for bulls-- which are good moderate BW's... And the average WW coming from that average is 653 for bulls and 588 for heifers....Thats asking more efficient moderate 1100-1300 lb calves to produce at least 1/2 their own body weight... Especially in my country- you can't ask for much better than that unless you own a feed store and supplement/creep your sucking calves (which in my opinion then gives false genetic info)...

I'm know other breeds and crossbreeding will give you higher #'s in both BW's and WW's-- but I prefer to stay with the lower input of both feed costs and labor that is often higher with those other types of cattle....

 

[dun]

I think that besides the low birthweight, low WW connection, there is some connection to maternal calving ease. Live calf is nice until you have to keep it as a replacement heifer and it dies having a calf. The place to use low birthweight bulls is if, say, you buy a herd of heifers and want to make sure they are ok the first time. Probably should sell all of those calves, though. Used to be low birth weight was less than 90. Then it was less than 80. Enough people keep heifers out of these 60 pound birthweight bulls and it's going to keep on 'til you have to have a 30 pound birthweight bull or you'll have calving trouble.

If you have problems with low BW bulls giving you hard calving daughterrs you aren;t selecting properly. There are a lot of Red Angus bulls that are less then breed average for BW EPD and still have daughters that excell as heifers and cows.

 

[robert]

I generally won't use a sire that has a lower CEM than CED, which should minimize creating hard calving daughters of calving ease bulls.

 

[3waycross]

I generally won't use a sire that has a lower CEM than CED, which should minimize creating hard calving daughters of calving ease bulls.

That criteria would tend to narrow the field pretty quick!

 

[dun]

I generally won't use a sire that has a lower CEM than CED, which should minimize creating hard calving daughters of calving ease bulls.

That criteria would tend to narrow the field pretty quick!

I don;t use that as a fixed criteria. I just require that both direct and maternal calving ease be at or above breed average.

 

[Engler]

Weight is important, but calf shape is probably at least as important if not more so. Take an 85# super blocky clubby deal and you can have troubles on a large % of cows. I never have been around any if the OLD school chi cattle, but was told that the calves would weigh 120#, but they were long and angular would just drop out.

I want a calf as big as possible that will come with no troubles and get going on it's own.

 

[robert]

I generally won't use a sire that has a lower CEM than CED, which should minimize creating hard calving daughters of calving ease bulls.

That criteria would tend to narrow the field pretty quick!

Yes it does but it also eliminates most of the bigger, better, faster bull of the month types that instead of becoming the breed legends they purport to be become the dogs you wish weren't in a pedigree due to their ability to bite you in the @ss down the line!

 

[Andyva]

I always wondered how all of that EPD hocus pocus worked? What happens when you have a high maternal calving ease heifer whose data is all based on cows that are bred to bulls of below average BW, (average bw being pretty light these days) and you breed her to a bull, suppose of a different breed, or of a line that has few calving troubles recorded, but have huge calves? They give odds on race-horses based on some pretty solid data, but on race day, that doesn't always hold true. I know it's just a guideline and a tool, but do you really think that having 50 pound calves is a healthy trend for cattle in the long term? There are a lot of factors involved besides just weight. I have pulled calves out of a particular charolais bull that had calves with huge knees. I've pulled some Hereford calves that tended to be dish faced with a real wide poll. I've pulled simmentals and charolais that were too long to get turned and sometimes came backwards. I've pulled limousine sired calves that had such long spindly legs that they seemed to get tangled up. A lot of these were not huge calves. And I've pulled some Angus sired calves out of what were supposed to be low birthweight bulls that didn't mesh well with the herd they were used on, and dumped a 100 pounder every once in a while.

 

[dun]

I always wondered how all of that EPD hocus pocus worked? What happens when you have a high maternal calving ease heifer whose data is all based on cows that are bred to bulls of below average BW, (average bw being pretty light these days) and you breed her to a bull, suppose of a different breed, or of a line that has few calving troubles recorded, but have huge calves? They give odds on race-horses based on some pretty solid data, but on race day, that doesn't always hold true. I know it's just a guideline and a tool, but do you really think that having 50 pound calves is a healthy trend for cattle in the long term? There are a lot of factors involved besides just weight. I have pulled calves out of a particular charolais bull that had calves with huge knees. I've pulled some Hereford calves that tended to be dish faced with a real wide poll. I've pulled simmentals and charolais that were too long to get turned and sometimes came backwards. I've pulled limousine sired calves that had such long spindly legs that they seemed to get tangled up. A lot of these were not huge calves. And I've pulled some Angus sired calves out of what were supposed to be low birthweight bulls that didn't mesh well with the herd they were used on, and dumped a 100 pounder every once in a while.

The actual calving weight is supposedly figured in some way. Anytime you cross breeds you run into the issues of possible higher then expected weight. Heterosis doesn;t start at birth. Our crossbred calves arre almost always a little heavier then the straightbreds. That's why we generally breed our heifers to bulls that we have seen through the years what they produce. Their second calf is frequently from a second breed.

 

[highgrit]

When I palpate a heifer I feel her pelvic measurement at the same time. The one's that I have a hard time getting in go to the barn. I figured more folks did this. The heifer and her calf we lost last year needed to go to the sale barn. I told my wife that when I palpated her. But she was registered and my wife wanted to keep her. Want to will cost you most every time.

 

[SPH]

What is the ideal low birth weight for a calf? 50lbs? 60lbs? 70lbs? The weight at which a calf is considered lbw?

My purpose in raising this question is the other day I saw the smallest calf to ever drop out a birth canal. It would be generous to say it weighed 40 pounds. The first thought in my mind is we have taken the low birth weight thing too far. That little calf is at a higher risk of being food for the vultures and coyotes.

Is 30-50 lbs too low and would you cull that from your herd?

If you get anything under 60lbs and I have serious concerns about the calf being strong and developed enough to make it if born in some tough conditions. We had one this year that probably at least 2 or 3 weeks early that was maybe 50 lbs and he didn't make it more than a few minutes although guessing that had more to do with he wasn't developed enough yet and the cow just slipped the calf too soon and didn't have any difficulty calving it. 70-80lbs is an ideal light birth weight and if a heifer has difficulty calving anything under 85 lbs I'd be concerned about pelvic size and birthing capability of that female. Mature cows anything under 85lbs I consider to be low birthweight and anything 95lbs and above a heavy BW. We've really tried to breed for calving ease in our herd after getting burned on some heavy birth weights by a bull we used that would throw a lot of 90+ and even some 100+ calves consistently. Since then we've gotten our average BW down to around 80 which is a pretty healthy weight for a newborn calf.

 

[JWBrahman]

Thanks for all the good info and replies.

Update on the tiny 35-50 pound calves:
Yesterday I counted 16 Mexican vultures eating and circling. Last night was a coyote party and there should be more dead ones this morning.

This is the result of stacking lbw sires for at least 4 generations. The lbw thing has been taken too far.

 

[inyati13]

Thanks for all the good info and replies.

Update on the tiny 35-50 pound calves:
Yesterday I counted 16 Mexican vultures eating and circling. Last night was a coyote party and there should be more dead ones this morning.

This is the result of stacking lbw sires for at least 4 generations. The lbw thing has been taken too far.

John, I know my sample size is small but it has not gone too far in the line of cattle I employ. My cattle are Simangus and the dominant pedigree goes to Built Right. My calves are large considering the size of my cows. Fire Sweep Ranch did an evaluation of my herd. I put together a simple sheet for her and she gave me an appraisal of each cow/heifer. My cows are smaller than I was guessing (I do not have a scales). Half my herd is in the 1200 pound range. The other half is in the 1400 pound range with a couple that will fall in the 1600 pound range. Based on what I am seeing, I would guess my average calf in the 5 years I been at this is 90 pounds to 100 pounds. I have only lost one cow and calf due to birthing issues. I did pull a calf on a heifer once. The others have been unassisted except for an occasional hand pull if I thought it would provide a small degree of help.

I have heard several explanations: I feed too much, my cows are over-conditioned, I am using the wrong crosses, there are problem genetics in the pedigree, etc.

I don't really know. I have been told based on Kris' review that my herd is not over-conditioned to the extent that I assumed. My cows do have excellent forage. But I think it may be partly what Dun mentioned above. I am crossing simangus back to AI PB angus bulls. I was doing that thinking I would get more moderate sized calves and it may be having an opposite effect!!!

 

[dun]

But I think it may be partly what Dun mentioned above. I am crossing simangus back to AI PB angus bulls. I was doing that thinking I would get more moderate sized calves and it may be having an opposite effect!!!

If you are referring to the heterosis starts at conception not birth comment, it doesn;t apply. As soon as you start combining the same bredds over multiple breedging cycles heterosis goes way down, if done for many generations you start getting into breed regression, i.e. declines because of the lack of diversity in the gene pool.

 

[3waycross]

I generally won't use a sire that has a lower CEM than CED, which should minimize creating hard calving daughters of calving ease bulls.

That criteria would tend to narrow the field pretty quick!

Yes it does but it also eliminates most of the bigger, better, faster bull of the month types that instead of becoming the breed legends they purport to be become the dogs you wish weren't in a pedigree due to their ability to bite you in the @ss down the line!

Lots of truth there! :tiphat: