Love of the land

[JWNeely]

I have about 1300 acres and my sis has the other 1300 acres, all one nice 2,600 acre ranch, with game, water, good cattle pasture, ect...
Now the hunters whom we lease to have made their move to buy out my sister, dang, I feel like one against many.
They have made her an offer that I am sure she will take.
What is a poor boy going to do.
There is no way I can come up with that kind of money, nor do I want to mortgage the ranch, so I am afraid all I can do is watch the ranch that has been in the family for 6 generations get broken up. I guess half is better than nothing.
My heart aches.
JWN

 

[Crowderfarms]

Guess these "Hunters" are really Doctors, Lawyers,and Bankers and CEO's in Real Tree Camo. At least 1300 Acres, will give you a little buffer zone. I can imagine how you feel. I always have said, I was born 10 years too late. Lot of my Family died off when I was too young to have bought it when it was sold.

 

[JWNeely]

They are indeed big time lawyers, CEO, and such....the bastards!

 

[Anonymous]

First thing you do is stop the lease program to these guys - time for a total restructuring of the plan. They may be the players you deal with, but for now you are rebuilding and want total control of YOUR place.

Second thing is you find out how much money they offered.

Third thing you do is match the offer - or see if - for family - she will come down a bit.

Fourth thing you do is approach a bank and find out what the cost is to carry the mortgage.

Lastly - the thing you do is use these guys to finance the whole operation. If they are prepared to come up with the money to buy - in the end maybe they can use a 10 year guaranteed price to hunt - at a slightly higher price - approach them with this.

Using their money and some of yours you might be able to keep the entire place.

I do not know the "numbers" so I do not know if this will work - but I certainly would crunch them.

You might auction off the rights to hunt on a tri-yearly basis - the costs to hunt will never go down, and if you have the right kind of place, the hunting income will increase over the years.

One final thing - you could ask your sister to carry the paper on a portion of the land and use that money to carry some of the place - reducing the finance costs from the bank.

Lots of ideas - do not go "traditional financial institutions" before you look at the out of the box options.

You gotta' have your sister buy in to the idea - so DO NOT - repeat - DO NOT P!SS HER OFF.

You wanna' talk further - pm me.

Good luck on this.

Bez'

 

[farmer rich]

That is a familiar story. It is sad to see a farm or ranch split up that way. Try not to let this come between you and your sister, afterall if she doesn't want to farm and has no connection to the land you can't blame her wanting to make the most of her assets. It just seems like your getting a raw deal working all hours for a living while she lives a life of luxury by cashing in on past generations labours. Remember the saying, easy come easy go. In the long run you and your kids will be better off.

There may also be an opportunity for you here. That land will still need farming, those CEO's will still need someone to manage the land, keep an eye on it while their not around, plant game crops e.t.c. You can provide this service, for a price, or in exchange for grazing rights. When they get fed up of it you may be in a better position to buy it back for the right price.

Whatever happens good luck.

 

[Chuckie]

If you have made improvements on your property since you purchased it, have it re-appraised again. At the beginning you bought the farm, paying $1000 (just an example) an acre, which comes to $1,300,000, and with the improvements, such as cleaning the land up, sheds etc... it is re-appraised at $1,820,000. You have been paying on the 1st loan on the property, and balance on that land has a remainder of $450,000. I would go to my loan person and tell them you want to borrow money to purchase more land and to pay the note on the land you already owned. After you pay the 1st loan off at $450,000, then that leaves you owing for what your sister wants for her land. Let him know what you are doing and figures on how you wil pay it off and the amount of money that will be earned from the farm. Put it on paper. Having a plan on paper always makes the banker more at ease.
According to what your sister has done to her place, the value has gone up. If she is asking $850 an acre, a balance on her 1300 acreas would be $1,105,000. You have paid off the 1st land at $450. Now the appraisal price is $1,820,000, and you borrow $1,500,000, so that leaves you a value of $320,000.
So here it is simplified:
$1,300,000.. Original cost of 1300 acres at $1000
$1,820,000.. new appraised value with improvements
$1,500,000... money you borrow to pay off $450,000 bal. due
$1,105,000... price your sister wants for her land @$850 acre
- $450,000....minus the balance on 1st loan of property
$655,000 balance after paying off 1st loan to apply to new one
$1,105,000 sister's land purchase price at $850 an acre
$450,000 is now the balance you owe for both properties 2600 acres. That is the same balance you owed on 1300 acres. But now you have doubled your acreage.
That is how I would do it.
Chuckie

 

[eric]

Chuckie....lets see if I got this correct. His land is reappraised at $1400 an acre, but she should sell hers (right next door and connected to his) at $850 an acre? I love my brother, but not that much. Theres probably no way he has the assets to pay on a million dollar land payment, or he wouldnt be asking for help in here. Good luck trying to find a bank to give you $1,500,000 for raw land. I believe he just wanted to vent and let us all know that he hates to see the land go, as any of us would, but there's just no way to make the numbers work out for him to keep it. And why would the hunters pay more to lease the land than they would to buy it outright? Sure, they would save the taxes, but taxes on land in the country, ag exempt, probably would be less than one of those guys Hummer payments!

Best scenario to hope for....as stated earlier, let her sell out, and ask the hunters to let you continue to graze it, plant cover fields and such, thereby making yuou a little change in your pocket and hopefully you can continue to use the land as yo have been.

 

[eric]

If you have made improvements on your property since you purchased it, have it re-appraised again. At the beginning you bought the farm, paying $1000 (just an example) an acre, which comes to $1,300,000, and with the improvements, such as cleaning the land up, sheds etc... it is re-appraised at $1,820,000. You have been paying on the 1st loan on the property, and balance on that land has a remainder of $450,000. I would go to my loan person and tell them you want to borrow money to purchase more land and to pay the note on the land you already owned. After you pay the 1st loan off at $450,000, then that leaves you owing for what your sister wants for her land. Let him know what you are doing and figures on how you wil pay it off and the amount of money that will be earned from the farm. Put it on paper. Having a plan on paper always makes the banker more at ease.
According to what your sister has done to her place, the value has gone up. If she is asking $850 an acre, a balance on her 1300 acreas would be $1,105,000. You have paid off the 1st land at $450. Now the appraisal price is $1,820,000, and you borrow $1,500,000, so that leaves you a value of $320,000.
So here it is simplified:
$1,300,000.. Original cost of 1300 acres at $1000
$1,820,000.. new appraised value with improvements
$1,500,000... money you borrow to pay off $450,000 bal. due
$1,105,000... price your sister wants for her land @$850 acre
- $450,000....minus the balance on 1st loan of property
$655,000 balance after paying off 1st loan to apply to new one
$1,105,000 sister's land purchase price at $850 an acre
$450,000 is now the balance you owe for both properties 2600 acres. That is the same balance you owed on 1300 acres. But now you have doubled your acreage.
That is how I would do it.
Chuckie

Wait, this just got fuzzier upon a reread.

If he borrows $1,500,000 from a bank, then he still owes $1,500,000! Actually, he owes 1.5 + the $450,000 on his first note. If he uses the banks money to pay off his first note, he still has to pay it back. He just has a note of 1.5 instead of 1.95 mil. (Isnt it great to get to spend others peoples money!)

The way I interpeted the original post, the land was probably inherited from his family, thus the sister and him getting 1/2 shares. So there probably isnt any first note.

Yes, its a shame to see large chunks of land sold of like this, but the sister can probably live happily ever after with this money and not have to worry about taking care of the place.

 

[Baylorcattleguy]

If the ranch is down around the Frio country, good luck on the prices. The only people who can afford those land payments are lawyers and CEOs.

I'll face the same situation someday here just north of Austin. While I would love to keep the ranch in the family, I won't begrudge my sister from selling out. She has no connection to the land and the money will be well spent on my nephews. When that happens I'll just probably move off somewhere and buy 4-5 times asmuch land.
There's great cattle country all over.

Sorry though about the problem.

 

[Chuckie]

Eric, I think you are right on the money part. Looks like I left a few big steps out. Moral of this story, "Never do finances after taking Ambien." I usually sit at the computer in the mornings before I go to bed waiting to get sleepy. It was fuzzy when I typed it too! Slept in the chair for a bit then crawled into the bed.
Now back to the problem of the land. I don't know if his family is like mine, but the land I got from the family I had to pay for. Just at land value price, no upgrades since there were none. I hope that he inherited that much land. I can't imagine his sister wanting to sell to some freaking lawyers. They steal from people when they are in a pinch and have no other way out according to the judges and lawyers that make these stupid rules. All they have is a license to steal. I feel sorry for JW if the jerks buy next to him. Just imagine how it will go if there is a property dispute or any kind of dispute. They will always come out on top since they run the place. Another lawyer will not take up a case against another lawyer. I can't imagine selling to them no matter what the price is.
If I owned that amount of land and it was to pass down to my children, I would put in the will that it could not be sold to anyone outside of the immediate family. That would be sister, brother, children, Mom, and Dad.
Why doesn't she just lease the land to them to go hunting on? Same deal. Here, land leases for hunting are high. And I would also draw up a contract that says if they cause any problems with the livestock with the brother or any neighbor, that the contract can be voided out by the owner if that is the owner's wish. Grrrrrr!

 

[JWNeely]

Well, I love my sis and I would not want to end up a bitter old man, the temptation to sell at prices of 3k per acre is always there ( 2600 + acres ), and a poor boy would never earn that kind of money ranching or hunting, so if she sells I can not stop her, it just makes me ill to see some city slicker own the old ranch.
I do not owe anything and sure ain't going to mortgage my half to buy her half, the bank would love that,OR, I could just sell out, buy me a townhouse, buy me a new truck with no scratches, maybe one of those King Ranch edition fords that I see all the lawyers driving around in, go on cruises, join the skeet club,maybe a country club, go on more cruises, or maybe not!

 

[eric]

JW.....I am sure 1300 acres is enough to keep you as busy as you'd ever care to be. Let the sis sell her place, it will give you a chance to get away every once in a while when you go to visit her and the kids in the city! And it's not like you'd ever have to see the hunters unless you choose to, as 1300 acres is plenty of room between neighbors. You sound like a reasonable man so let your sister sell her 1/2 and both of ya'll will just go on with your lives. Good luck, and things just always have a way of working themselves out somehow.

 

[cherokeeruby]

One thing you might do to delay her selling the land is mention the possibility of the Trans-Texas Corridor being built through your area. The land may be worth more in the near future than it is right now. That could be the reason the 'hunters' are interested in buying the land now. I understand you are in Frio County, I pulled up the website for the purposed highway and one of the possible routes goes right through Pearsall. Here are a couple of links for you to look at.

http://www.keeptexasmoving.org/

This should take you to a map of the routes.

http://www.keeptexasmoving.org/flash/in ... active.htm

 

[JWNeely]

That will be a big land grab, I remember when I-35 went through our friends irrigated peanut farm, way back in the 60's, I was but a lad, that was a sad thing, now it looks like they will be doing it again!

 

[Brandonm2]

If your sister can make $3000 an acre I would probably tell her to go ahead and sell. By my math that is $3.9 million. Once she sells her ranch, put your half on the market for $4.3 million (10% over the last sale). Then you can head further out and buy your own 3000 acre place in a more remote area for $3 mill (3000acres*$1000/acre). You will still have the same farm income you have now, won't have to pay your sister anything, and should have a $mill left over after the 1031 like kind exchange and the capital gains taxes to put into the retirement account). Whatever happens I would not get mad at your sister. This is supposed to be a business and when you can make more money by going out of business than by staying in business the business play is to sell.

I have never been to your county. BUT IF there is real future development potential you both may be better off holding. I have seen 80 acre ranches bring $2.2 million when the builders are ready for them. I don't know if that kind of growth is in your county's future; but you may want to sit down with your sister and a builder or suburban real estate broker and come up with your own development plan. $3.9 mill is pretty damn good money; but there may be a whole lot more money parceling it out in 50 acre parcels to builders every couple of years.

These "hunters" are real estate speculators. They believe that a $3.9 million investment (~$200g per year on a 5% note) is going to produce a sizable return at some point in the future. They probably believe that $3.9 mill is even CHEAP. I wouldn't give the this was daddy's, granddaddy's, and great granddaddy's land and they would want you all's grandkids to keep farming the land speech. That is simple sentimentality and I can't imagine anyone taking that seriously. GREED is the number one motivational factor in selling any idea. Show her how she can make MORE money by being the speculator than by being the patsy who sells her land cheap just before it's value skyrockets.

Again I don't know anything about your county in Texas or what land is bringing or what kind of growth is possible there; but try this on for size.... find a developer-builder who will pay $600,000 for fifty acres ($12g per acre is chump change when you are going to build two $200g houses on that acre and the $600g worth of property is only $30g/year in interest while you build the houses (worth $22 mill worth of saless over the next 5 years) with a four year option on the adjoining 50 for $660,000. MOST builders will either eventually exercise that option or sell it to someone who will. Over the next 10 years you all could sell 300-400 acres in 6-8 pieces for $3.9-5.5 mill and you have jacked up the valuation of your remaining 2200 acres into the stratosphere where you can either sell out for $9-10,000 an acre or keep doing 20 to 50 acre deals everytime the mood hits you while continuing to enjoy your remaining ranchland. Remember that the average acre of land increases in value 7% a year and in a growth area it can move up at 3 to 8 times that. So land generally is making you more money sitting there than money in the bank is making AND you don't have to pay taxes on that valuation increase (unlike bank interest). These speculators believe they are going to be multi-millionaires off of this simple $3.9 mill deal. They could be WRONG or they could be right and all you and your sister have to do is figure out how to do what they want to do.

 

[Chuckie]

I guess I am one to think about how many years my ancestors have sweated on the land to make a living. I can see them in the log house, old clock ticking is the only noise since there is no TV, coil oil lamps and candles, cooking over the fireplace, etc...... It was passed down from each person and they kept it in the family and I would consider the land sacred. I would be afraid of a curse being cast upon me if I sold the land. :shock: :shock: :roll:

 

[Wilson_Cattle_Company]

You guys don't want to even get me started on this topic!!

The more I think about this I swear up and down I will be the only 17 year old boy that has a heartattack in the history of this damn world!!

These damn lawyer hunters, bankers, CEOs, are coming around this part of the country and buying up all the goddamn land!!

There is a guy that lives right across the road from us and he sells leases to hunters and you would not believe the traffic around here in the Winter!!!!!! When you look out into a field all you see in the damn trees is orange, all you see is deer stands, dust never settles on the damn roads, all you hear are gun shots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think my bloodpressure is 350/10 right now!!!!!

:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

Bastards!

They only use it in the Winter and they won't even rent the damn thing for summer pasture!!

JEEZZ!!

I don't know what we are going to do. Hunters will own the whole damn part of North Central Oklahoma before to long!

MAN......

Well I better cool off...............................................

I was reading somebodys signature on here the other day.. I know I am gunna screw this up but I think it said:

"God created man Sam Colt made them equal"

LOL.... good advice....

:x

I better pop in a chew and relax......... !!@&*&%&^^$$%%$#%$#%

.....rambling on........................................

 

[Chuckie]

Avery, you give em' hell!!

 

[Wilson_Cattle_Company]

Avery, you give em' hell!!

:cboy:

You can count on that Chuckie!!

You know Chuckie... hunting "accidents" are becoming more common around here in hunting season... :roll: its to bad really.... Something tells me this year is going to be worse..... ;-) hhhmmmm.... to bad ya know..... :cboy:

I'll teach those sumbitches' how to hunt!!

:x :x :x

gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

 

[Chuckie]

Hey Avery, Are you and your Dad sharing Wilson_Cattle_Company name on this here forum? I have a feeling you might be. I just don't know which one I am talking to sometimes. But I do get you are the son here. It doesn't take a lot to confuse me since I'm getting so old.
But what I wanted to say is, we want you to stay on this side of the bars. I have a feeling that they don't have computers on the other side of the bars. But they show televisions on the TV shows about prison. So stick around.