Longhorn cross

[Travlr]

We are very high in molybdenum here so feed a high copper ratio to offset it Other minerals are lacking some. Calcium and phosphorus are at 300% and 250% required. We made our custom mineral with the help of a couple well respected nutritionists nearly 20 years ago. It was the beginning of so much better health in our herd we won't be stopping using it.
As far as country goes, lots come here because of the scenery and cheaper land values. There are two of us who have been here over 40 years, Two about 20 and the rest 5 years or less. Those of us here the longest have increased in size by purchasing properties from bank sales or from those who have given up trying to change the wheel before the bank took over. She is good to us who live with her and learn to roll with the punches. Some tried to raise those big calves you talk about until they found out how much it cost to raise them.
I prefer to measure dollars left over after expenses on a cow rather than how heavy her calf is. Even our little 350 weight heifers left $300 this year.

600# calves is more about genetics than nutrition. As said, I never fed any supplements. People seem to be hung up on calving ease/low birth weight bulls and you can't raise big weaning weights with those kind. It's just managing your older cows and having weaning weight genetics top and bottom.

 

[gcreekrch]

600# calves is more about genetics than nutrition. As said, I never fed any supplements. People seem to be hung up on calving ease/low birth weight bulls and you can't raise big weaning weights with those kind. It's just managing your older cows and having weaning weight genetics top and bottom.

At what cost? When do you calve? How big are your cows? Do you fertilize and/or run irrigation? How long do you feed? Supplements are only part of the picture.
Could you wean 700 lbs with supplements?

Still goes back to dollars spent and dollars kept.

 

[libertygarden]

@gcreekrch are you running corriente with good bulls?

 

[Travlr]

At what cost? When do you calve? How big are your cows? Do you fertilize and/or run irrigation? How long do you feed? Supplements are only part of the picture.
Could you wean 700 lbs with supplements?

Still goes back to dollars spent and dollars kept.

It looks like you are trying to throw excuses in by complicating the issue. As said... it's about genetics. None of the questions above affect weaning weights if you have your genetic program set up for the weights you want.

 

[Dave]

@gcreekrch are you running corriente with good bulls?

Oh Please don't insult gcreek.

 

[Rmc]

It looks like you are trying to throw excuses in by complicating the issue. As said... it's about genetics. None of the questions above affect weaning weights if you have your genetic program set up for the weights you want.

Those issues do effect weaning weights wean at 5 months or 7 will definitely effect weaning weight. Supplemental feeding will affect weaning weights.

Still goes back to dollars spent and dollars kept.

Something many on this board forget.
Overall most important is $ left in pocket after All expenses paid.
Your own labor is an expense as well .

 

[Dave]

Something many on this board forget.
Overall most important is $ left in pocket after All expenses paid.
Your own labor is an expense as well .

I always figured that the profit was to pay for your labor. Some years you get paid real well for your labor others not so much. And in some cases like mine where I am retired, the labor (having something to do) is a benefit not an expense.

 

[libertygarden]

I didn't mean to insult @gcreekrch. I don't know people here too well, yet. From what he wrote previously:

Some tried to raise those big calves you talk about until they found out how much it cost to raise them.
I prefer to measure dollars left over after expenses on a cow rather than how heavy her calf is. Even our little 350 weight heifers left $300 this year.

I thought he might be somewhere in the west running low maintenance cows.

 

[Travlr]

Those issues do effect weaning weights wean at 5 months or 7 will definitely effect weaning weight. Supplemental feeding will affect weaning weights.

Something many on this board forget.
Overall most important is $ left in pocket after All expenses paid.
Your own labor is an expense as well .

This conversation began with me saying I don't supplement. So the 600# weaning weights being discussed is not about supplementation.
Any of the things gcreekrch mentioned has no effect on weaning weights as long as they are considered correctly as part of a genetic program to begin with. Once bred, the only consideration to reach the 600# ww goal is adequate nutrition to reach the goal... which doesn't include supplements for my animals.
Time of calving, irrigation/fertilizers, how long I feed, only relates to keeping the pastures/animals in condition. If the cow hasn't the genetic potential to produce a 600# weaned calf then managing these factors won't make her do it. The size of a cow only applies as her genetic potential applies. Her capacity to produce an adequate calf is only marginally dictated by her size. I've seen big cows that raised small ww calves and small cows that raised big ww calves.

 

[mwj]

Some people are very proud of what they think they know!

Bump,

 

[simme]

Genetics are a big part of growth and weaning weight. But you won't get heavy weights on just genetics, air and water. Growth requires inputs - adequate nutrition and such. Grass and forages. Those inputs to produce growth are determined by the capacity of the land and environment. Too little growth genetics and stocking rate compared to capacity may leave money on the table. But too much growth genetics and too high of a stocking rate relative to the capacity of the land and cattle will outgrow the available inputs. It may be that understanding those and balancing those becomes an important factor in profit and longevity.

 

[Rmc]

This conversation began with me saying I don't supplement. So the 600# weaning weights being discussed is not about supplementation.
Any of the things gcreekrch mentioned has no effect on weaning weights as long as they are considered correctly as part of a genetic program to begin with. Once bred, the only consideration to reach the 600# ww goal is adequate nutrition to reach the goal... which doesn't include supplements for my animals.
Time of calving, irrigation/fertilizers, how long I feed, only relates to keeping the pastures/animals in condition. If the cow hasn't the genetic potential to produce a 600# weaned calf then managing these factors won't make her do it. The size of a cow only applies as her genetic potential applies. Her capacity to produce an adequate calf is only marginally dictated by her size. I've seen big cows that raised small ww calves and small cows that raised big ww calves.

You don't supplement because you don't raise cattle.
Weaning at 5 months vs 7 will have a huge effect on weaning weights regardless of genetics
For me the last few years has been better profit wise for me to wean in September,and pick my price to sell rather then wait 1-2 months and sell when everyone else does and take that price drop.
Have the basic genetics changed ? No
But my weaning weights have.

 

[Travlr]

Genetics are a big part of growth and weaning weight. But you won't get heavy weights on just genetics, air and water. Growth requires inputs - adequate nutrition and such. Grass and forages. Those inputs to produce growth are determined by the capacity of the land and environment. Too little growth genetics and stocking rate compared to capacity may leave money on the table. But too much growth genetics and too high of a stocking rate relative to the capacity of the land and cattle will outgrow the available inputs. It may be that understanding those and balancing those becomes an important factor in profit and longevity.

Yes... you have to be aware of your animal and their condition. And that depends on available forage and pasture management.

 

[Ky hills]

May get hammered for this, but it is what it is. Years ago when I ran registered. Charolais, it was an easy average for heifer calves to wean off at over 700 and bulls to average around 800 at 7-8 months. Sometimes creep fed and sometimes not. One year that specifically remember with some creep feed all bulls weighed from 825 - 900.
Still had decent weights when initially using Angus or Hereford bulls over the registered Charolais cows.
After that with a complete different herd of cows no Charolais genetics, basically Angus and or Hereford, we don't come close to those weaning weights, and that is including AI calves by AI sired cows from some of the high growth animals of the day. No longer have scales so calves are weighed when sold.
For instance this years calves were weaned for around 6 weeks and sold about an average of 8 months. The largest steer calves averaged 590. That was with no creep and minimal feed after weaning. Those calves were by our home raised bulls but also very comparable with AI sired calves from a few years ago.
. The Charolais weighed much more but were also much larger at birth. They were also from heavy milking cows from 30 years ago and calves were by mainly bulls coming on the heels of the frame race.
Would be interesting to see how Charolais of today compare.
I believe genetics only goes so far. If the environmental/nutritional conditions are stacked favorably then some advantages can be achieved but at what cost of production. A lot of factors come into play.

 

[gcreekrch]

I didn't mean to insult @gcreekrch. I don't know people here too well, yet. From what he wrote previously:



I thought he might be somewhere in the west running low maintenance cows.

No south western exotics here. Just late calves, some heifers, and general dinks that were born here because their mothers were not worth selling the year before.

 

[elkwc]

Grass hay at $220 a ton. Feeding hay every day from some time in December (depending on weather) until we can go to grass in late April. Cows get about 27 pounds of hay per day. They aren't dry lotted. Right now they are snow lotted and will be through February if we are lucky, Later if we aren't.

We are in a drought. Have been blessed with some moisture recently.Too late for any grazing now. Hopefully we will get some warmer weather and the wheat will grow in February. We didn't retain as many as planned. Ours get 3 lb of a mix we get at our feed store and free choice hay. We were fortunate to find some real good hay for $130.00 a ton. We don't push our heifers. We are fortunate in that our cattle can graze most of the winter.

 

[elkwc]

If a cow doesn't wean a 600# calf without grain she goes to the sale barn. Other than grass, hay, and a red (or yellow in spring) salt block they don't get any more grain than it takes to teach the leaders to come when they are called. A couple of gallons of grain will call a bunch of cows.

We don't feed much hay. Mainly when the grass is covered with snow. We do keep out minerals and salt. We strive to wean 700 lb or better steers at 7-8 months. All but one group achieved that goal this year. We don't creep.

 

[Travlr]

We don't feed much hay. Mainly when the grass is covered with snow. We do keep out minerals and salt. We strive to wean 700 lb or better steers at 7-8 months. All but one group achieved that goal this year. We don't creep.

Where are you and what breed(s) cattle are you running?

 

[BFE]

May get hammered for this, but it is what it is. Years ago when I ran registered. Charolais, it was an easy average for heifer calves to wean off at over 700 and bulls to average around 800 at 7-8 months. Sometimes creep fed and sometimes not. One year that specifically remember with some creep feed all bulls weighed from 825 - 900.
Still had decent weights when initially using Angus or Hereford bulls over the registered Charolais cows.
After that with a complete different herd of cows no Charolais genetics, basically Angus and or Hereford, we don't come close to those weaning weights, and that is including AI calves by AI sired cows from some of the high growth animals of the day. No longer have scales so calves are weighed when sold.
For instance this years calves were weaned for around 6 weeks and sold about an average of 8 months. The largest steer calves averaged 590. That was with no creep and minimal feed after weaning. Those calves were by our home raised bulls but also very comparable with AI sired calves from a few years ago.
. The Charolais weighed much more but were also much larger at birth. They were also from heavy milking cows from 30 years ago and calves were by mainly bulls coming on the heels of the frame race.
Would be interesting to see how Charolais of today compare.
I believe genetics only goes so far. If the environmental/nutritional conditions are stacked favorably then some advantages can be achieved but at what cost of production. A lot of factors come into play.

Are you able to run more cows per acre now vs. your old charolais herd?
Did your charolais herd require more supplemental feed than now to maintain?
I'm confident that today you would see a 20-30 cent dock in char calves so we won't even got there. Don't know about 30 years past.
Other factors I'm not thinking of?

I find this interesting. The biggest names in AAA are WW chasers. A sale catalog I received recently had many high 9 weight and even 1000+ WW bulls. I understand, they sell stock for prices way above what commercial calves bring, but as KYH said, many factors come into play.

I find myself torn between low cost production and running small numbers due to limited availability of pasture and increasing herd size with more produced feed and more overhead. Low cost has always won so far, due to return on investment, but it is the most limiting factor of expansion. Low cost has the best exit strategy by far, in worst case scenarios. Any type of farming/ranching is geared towards get big or get out and economies of scale, however, so small production has its disadvantages too. Not looking for a silver bullet here, just trying to keep a good discussion going and get some valuable input.

 

[elkwc]

Where are you and what breed(s) cattle are you running?

West central Oklahoma. Mainly Black Angus cows with a few Herefords and Red Angus cows. Some Gelbveigh influence due to bull we tried 6-8 years ago. We select for an efficient high volume cow in the 6.0 frame range. That is what works in our environment and market. What returns the most dollars per acre. Culled a productive 7 y/o this week because she didn't maintain body condition like we prefer. During a drought those who can't maintain condition surface.