Linebreeding

[Oubuffel]

Linebreeding is arguably one of the most powerful breeding techniques known to man. It provides us with the opportunity to save time. Because yes, breeding does take time, and a lot of it. By not making use of linebreeding techniques, a lifetime is often not long enough for us to achieve our goals and that is why many of us often turn towards linebreeding.

The topic of this thread is going to be Linebreeding Techniques - Their Success & Failures. In other words, what I am asking all my Cattle Today friends, is to share your personal experiences with us, with regards to linebreeding. Which technique gave you the best results - half brother with half sister, sire with daughter, son with dam? Any and all possible combinations. Which gave you the best results, or the greatest disappointments?

 

[skangusguy]

Ask me in 20 years, I've been raising purebreds for just over that, and I'm still trying to learn. There's 2 main advantages to linebreeding. It concentrates the good genes and shows up the recessives. There's 2 main disadvantages. It concentrates the undesirable genes and slows the rate of input of more desirable genes. So unless you have nearly perfect cattle to begin with, you might be better off buying from a linebred program that aligns with your goals than doing a lot yourself?

 

[Oubuffel]

Thanks for sharing some of your wisdom skangusguy!

What you're saying is that it concentrates good genes, but also concentrates undesirable genes as well as additionally slowing down the rate of input of more desirable genes. That sounds like linebreeding won't get us anywhere, but in trouble. Certainly, there must be some hefty advantages to linebreeding, otherwise breeders wouldn't have been doing it for so long and purebreds wouldn't exist.

So let's look at it this way and let's say we do have some nearly perfect cattle to begin with. The quickest and obvious first option available is to put the bull with his own daughters, right? What would the advantages, disadvantages and possible outcome of this particular linebreeding technique be?

 

[FungusProudKY31]

"So let's look at it this way and let's say we do have some nearly perfect cattle to begin with. The quickest and obvious first option available is to put the bull with his own daughters, right? What would the advantages, disadvantages and possible outcome of this particular linebreeding technique be?"

If you do some historic study of linebreeding and try some you will find that about 15% or less of livestock (generally individuals or small populations) can stand that genetic pressure and do what folks want them to do. So you then have a greatly reduced genepool to start. You face a more rapid rise in the future of the %IBC.

Generally, linebreeding does not automatically eliminate genetic variations. Study the isolated populations of red deer and soay sheep. Anything but. You will continue to force your selective power on a closed population or else you will not see what you think you want to see. This will also speed the increase of the average %IBC.

If you want to know if it is going to work ASAP: son to mother or sire to daughter. The most powerful one to me: son to mother. An opinion. But you are still dealing with mitochondrial DNA transfer which is only transferred from the female which is a big plus.

The biggest question before you start: WHY? If you don't need to, don't.

If you do not get all %IBCs above 15% you're pretty much blowing smoke and urinating in the ocean.

Most folks do not like linebred animals. They will be deemed suspect by some. It is a modern thought as you know the way lines and breeds were historically developed. To linebreed is working against the modern marvels of buying semen, sale catalog purchases and being one of the good ol' boys. The base network of livestock production: other folks want your money and loyalty. As a linebreeder you are an outsider. There's more human issues in animal breeding than there is animal issues.

The semen catalogs and sale catalogs will highlight a bull occasionally as linebred or outcross but if you look at the actual pedigree you will see that they are not honest.

If you linebreed registered livestock you will quickly have EPDs which are irrelevant to the comparative mainstream cattle. The EPDs will grow to be quite inaccurate.

Look up the Bulmer effect. You can overcome it with selection away from regressed animals but it will take a few generations to either see success or complete failure.

 

[kentuckyguy]

I'm starting to lean towards doing some line breeding just to keep from bringing outside animals on the farm.
My start is going to be a maternal AI bull calf out of a cow that fits my environment perfectly. Notice I didn't say the fastest growing or biggest cow. She is 11 years old, stays far year round, breeds back quickly, and is docile.
That bull calf will be cleaning up after AI this spring and fall. Once I see a calf crop he may get to breed more cows.
The biggest problem with breeding cattle is it usually take 3 to 4 years to find out if you screwed up. Getting heifers that raise a calf and breed back as a wet 2 year old separates the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Nick Wagner]

Been line breeding here for some 10 years now. Culling is critical. Started because I got tired of importing problems with both live bulls and AI bulls and am happy with the results so far. You're not out much to keep one of your own bulls and use him on a few, first caution is to use a low birthweight Bull.

 

[Ky hills]

Looks like after quite a while of sampling current genetics, and being disappointed more often than not, we are now going to be linebreeding. Not sure how far I will take it in retaining of our bulls completely. Right now we have 2 half brothers, and a third one who's dam is a half sister. Only a handful of our current cows/heifers are related to them and that is also of the 1/2 siblings. We are going to select a couple bulls from this years crop that are unrelated. We have been heading in a direction that is more of type than breed specific, but working with a base of Hereford and Angus cows and crosses of the two. The focus has been on the maternal side of the equation, with fertility and udder quality being emphasized. Some of the bulls we are selecting are more moderate in stature than I have traditionally sought after but should still have enough frame, they are from cows that possess the characteristics we are looking for in cows

 

[Nick Wagner]

Looks like after quite a while of sampling current genetics, and being disappointed more often than not, we are now going to be linebreeding. Not sure how far I will take it in retaining of our bulls completely. Right now we have 2 half brothers, and a third one who's dam is a half sister. Only a handful of our current cows/heifers are related to them and that is also of the 1/2 siblings. We are going to select a couple bulls from this years crop that are unrelated. We have been heading in a direction that is more of type than breed specific, but working with a base of Hereford and Angus cows and crosses of the two. The focus has been on the maternal side of the equation, with fertility and udder quality being emphasized. Some of the bulls we are selecting are more moderate in stature than I have traditionally sought after but should still have enough frame, they are from cows that possess the characteristics we are looking for in cows

Your last sentence is the key, he will throw daughters that look like his mother, so choose carefully and cull ruthlessly. We have improved udders, frame scores have moderated, and I've been told my calves look like peas in a pod since we started using our own bulls.

 

[BlackHerefordVA]

I artificially inseminate to a great bull named Iron Slinger. We accidentally inseminated a first time Heifer that happens to be his daughter with his semen. Both are top quality cattle. No known defects with either one. Anyone know if that will be a problem? We've never made that mistake before.

 

[kenny thomas]

I artificially inseminate to a great bull named Iron Slinger. We accidentally inseminated a first time Heifer that happens to be his daughter with his semen. Both are top quality cattle. No known defects with either one. Anyone know if that will be a problem? We've never made that mistake before.

Only problem will probably be in trying to register the calf.

 

[BlackHerefordVA]

Only problem will probably be in trying to register the calf.

As long as it's a good healthy calf, I can live with that. They're both top quality cattle.

 

[Rmc]

An interesting article on a herd of cattle that have been inbred/line bred for 800-1000 years

A British beast rarer than the panda

Chillingham Castle is home to one of the world's last remaining herds of wild cattle, whose gene pool is so isolated that every animal is essentially a genetic clone.

www.bbc.com

 

[andybob]

An interesting article on a herd of cattle that have been inbred/line bred for 800-1000 years

A British beast rarer than the panda

Chillingham Castle is home to one of the world's last remaining herds of wild cattle, whose gene pool is so isolated that every animal is essentially a genetic clone.

www.bbc.com

The herd on Swona island is an interesting one, they are totally inbred, having been isolated for over 40 years, from a single bull and I think four cows left there. There is only ever one bull dominant so there is close inbreeding for the period any given bull is in the top position, I am trying to get some details on the conception rates calf survival etc, as I have a herd of research Angus and pigs (Babraham herd) both inbred for 50+ years, and would like to compare the naturally bred herd with the "managed" research herds.

 

[Ebenezer]

There are numerous research articles on long term isolated herds/flocks of red deer and also Soay sheep. Some tight inbreeding. I can give you links if you want to read. In intense linebreeding you are merely finding the animals/genes that can stand the pressure.

This is an old thread. The repeat question is Why? In your case of a mistake, I'd never bat an eye and expect something as a keeper.

I have seen good and bad. The bad is most obvious: small cattle without average function, sterility, undesirable traits... This is with chickens, sheep and cattle. I still linebreed but with a goal(s) and know which animals, if they are still here, do better with an outcross.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Y'all must be raising Herefords if you're talking line breeding. The rest of the world calls it inbreeding.
You will get far more good out of an out cross than you will line breeding.

 

[Rmc]

You will get far more good out of an out cross than you will line breeding.

So you can identify and eliminate all undesirable recessive genes from the geneotype by out crossing?
You can increase similarity of offspring by continuously outcrossing?
You can increase predictablity of continually outcrossing? If so point me to the scientific research to back up these claims.if outcrossing continues passed the f2 generation it is a cross of diminishing returns not increasing returns.

 

[Redgully]

I've seen a couple of herds that linebred and to me all it did was make the cattle narrow. Maybe they selected the wrong lines to focus on, I'm not sure but i think it is fraught with danger especially if you have an eye that overlooks faults in trying to achieve goals.

 

[Rancher]

I artificially inseminate to a great bull named Iron Slinger. We accidentally inseminated a first time Heifer that happens to be his daughter with his semen. Both are top quality cattle. No known defects with either one. Anyone know if that will be a problem? We've never made that mistake before.

What you did is true line breeding! Brother + sister= in breeding, be very careful with that

 

[SBMF 2015]

So you can identify and eliminate all undesirable recessive genes from the geneotype by out crossing?
You can increase similarity of offspring by continuously outcrossing?
You can increase predictablity of continually outcrossing? If so point me to the scientific research to back up these claims.if outcrossing continues passed the f2 generation it is a cross of diminishing returns not increasing returns.

If you want similar offspring use flush siblings. I.e. flush brothers on a set of cows or flush sisters to build an identical set of cows. Then out cross them.
Hybrid vigor is the cheapest way to add pounds to a calf crop. And most people sell pounds either feeders or fats. Pounds=Dollars.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@SBMF 2015. Save your fingers. Your wasting your time debating with Rmc