Line-Breeding

[norriscathy]

Years ago I saw some research that suggested that you needed 200 head to close your herd and engage in strict linebreeding. It seems that with 200 head or more your gene pool is large enough to not cause a lot of problems.

 

[JHH]

I think that it would be ok Victoria, Not close enough to cause any problems I dont think but I am not an expert. I think I would do it.

Some other Herf breeders out there may know more but I thought that the miles city Herefords ( Line 1) were inbred or linebred going back to 2 bulls? I havent really researched that but they are some good animals. JHH

 

[smnherf]

Linebreeding is something that shouldn't probably done by just anybody. It can either eliminate or perpetuate genetic problems or genetic plusses in the resulting offspring. I myself would not be afraid of using a linebred bull or doing linebreeding myself but the genetics that you start with had better be superior and free of any major defects.

Line breeding can accomplish several goals: 1) produce a more consistent and uniform offspring; 2) identify breeding populations that have no genetic flaws, or identify existing flaws so they can be eliminated; 3) accentuate and sustain more consistent excellence; 4) develop linebred progeny that will provide a "genetic kick" or hybrid vigor when they are outcrossed with non relatives.

There is a website an old Hereford breeder and college professor that has a couple artcles on it about linebreeding and linecrossing. Go to WNHBULLS.com He gives some good insight into linebreeding and if you are interested in doing it, it may help .


Interesting to me is that this concept was being perpetuated by colleges and universities 30 years ago as a way to improve genetics and now many are advocating using crossbred bulls as a way to improve genetics. To me these two philosophies work against each other. One tries to consolidate the genes into a narrower gene pool in order to improve predictablity and the other actually expands the gene pool.

 

[aplusmnt]

i am completely against line-breeding

inbreeding will select any tiny problematic trait in your genetics and increase it in the next generation. It is the opposite of heterosis, or "negative" heterosis.

Buy the semen, it's inexpensive and in the long run less risky in my opinion.

There is potential for both good and bad. Sometimes it works great and other times it works terribly. Some bulls you might not want to do any line-breeding. For example in the club calf bulls there is a bull called Who Made Who. He has been one of the most successful bulls of all time in club calf breeding. But if he is not used on very sound cows he has a tendency to be make some cripples. So most people would never Line Breed with him. To much potential for things going wrong.

But on the other hand say a bull that has no apparent weaknesses and is a really sound, strong bull. Line-breeding will have a strong chance of magnifying his good attributes and working good for you. Just one of those tools that need to be used wisely, and if so can show some nice success.

Now this is funny advice on line-breeding and you didn't know what a schedule F was on another thread.

Capt Call........Don't hate the player hate the game! If I said something that was wrong, then please use your vast intellect to point out exactly what detail I was in error??????? I would love to know what statement I made there that was wrong?

Also just because someone says I do not know what a schedule F is does not mean they are correct. That same person seems to think I only have 2 show heifers, and no other cattle, I could choose to correct them (even though I have posted more pictures than two if they paid attention).

So I say to you Capt Call put up or shut up!!! Please show me the error of my statement about line-breeding??????????? Or are you smart enough to even know what it is?

 

[SEC]

In response to whether or not you should double Rambo. I would say you need to be very careful. Rambo may do somethings right but he will leave you with tight hided cattle, a little harder doing, the females can be a little coarse. The sons are muscular but the daughters can look a little ordinary. I would say the strength in the Rambo 91K bull is his dam the Prospector who has generated a lot of dollars for Hanson's and anyone else who was able to attain her embryos or genetics.
In fact, Red KBJ Sams Prospector 133Z might be a bull that gets overlooked more than he should. In Canada, his semen is hard to come by and worth a little cash. But he sires sons and daughters that turn out great, plus you can line him up a few times and you will be fine. For those that have linebred with old Prospector you need to watch scrotal and he will tip udders a bit.

 

[SEC]

Linebreeding only needs to be feared if you don't trust you genetics. If you have the basics it will be fine. But if there is problems you will find out right away as it appears. The benefit of not linebreeding is that heterosis will mask things and we never know where things are at.

In the Angus breed looking back there is lots of bulls who were linebred and worked very well.

Some lines will have trouble crossing more than once. A visit with Larry Leondarhdt in Wyoming, very interest gentleman. Gerald Fry has a book call the basis of linebreeding it's awesome! I read it 5 times bfore I was stared to take it all in. It's a mind boggling!

 

[Caustic Burno]

i am completely against line-breeding

inbreeding will select any tiny problematic trait in your genetics and increase it in the next generation. It is the opposite of heterosis, or "negative" heterosis.

Buy the semen, it's inexpensive and in the long run less risky in my opinion.

There is potential for both good and bad. Sometimes it works great and other times it works terribly. Some bulls you might not want to do any line-breeding. For example in the club calf bulls there is a bull called Who Made Who. He has been one of the most successful bulls of all time in club calf breeding. But if he is not used on very sound cows he has a tendency to be make some cripples. So most people would never Line Breed with him. To much potential for things going wrong.

But on the other hand say a bull that has no apparent weaknesses and is a really sound, strong bull. Line-breeding will have a strong chance of magnifying his good attributes and working good for you. Just one of those tools that need to be used wisely, and if so can show some nice success.

Now this is funny advice on line-breeding and you didn't know what a schedule F was on another thread.

Capt Call........Don't hate the player hate the game! If I said something that was wrong, then please use your vast intellect to point out exactly what detail I was in error??????? I would love to know what statement I made there that was wrong?

Also just because someone says I do not know what a schedule F is does not mean they are correct. That same person seems to think I only have 2 show heifers, and no other cattle, I could choose to correct them (even though I have posted more pictures than two if they paid attention).

You guys that do not believe in securing our Mexican borders and only allowing legal immigrants in America sure hold grudges huh?

So I say to you Capt Call put up or shut up!!! Please show me the error of my statement about line-breeding??????????? Or are you smart enough to even know what it is?

Boy you blow up like an explosion in a steel wool factory you make a comment then get mad when someone brings it back to you. I am not saying you can't be educated in cattle just a little hard to swallow advice on linebreeding from someone that runs four or five cows.

 

[Aero]

You guys that do not believe in securing our Mexican borders and only allowing legal immigrants in America sure hold grudges huh?

i didnt hear that mentioned in any of the previous posts... dont change the topic.

 

[aplusmnt]

i am completely against line-breeding

inbreeding will select any tiny problematic trait in your genetics and increase it in the next generation. It is the opposite of heterosis, or "negative" heterosis.

Buy the semen, it's inexpensive and in the long run less risky in my opinion.

There is potential for both good and bad. Sometimes it works great and other times it works terribly. Some bulls you might not want to do any line-breeding. For example in the club calf bulls there is a bull called Who Made Who. He has been one of the most successful bulls of all time in club calf breeding. But if he is not used on very sound cows he has a tendency to be make some cripples. So most people would never Line Breed with him. To much potential for things going wrong.

But on the other hand say a bull that has no apparent weaknesses and is a really sound, strong bull. Line-breeding will have a strong chance of magnifying his good attributes and working good for you. Just one of those tools that need to be used wisely, and if so can show some nice success.

Now this is funny advice on line-breeding and you didn't know what a schedule F was on another thread.

Capt Call........Don't hate the player hate the game! If I said something that was wrong, then please use your vast intellect to point out exactly what detail I was in error??????? I would love to know what statement I made there that was wrong?

Also just because someone says I do not know what a schedule F is does not mean they are correct. That same person seems to think I only have 2 show heifers, and no other cattle, I could choose to correct them (even though I have posted more pictures than two if they paid attention).

You guys that do not believe in securing our Mexican borders and only allowing legal immigrants in America sure hold grudges huh?

So I say to you Capt Call put up or shut up!!! Please show me the error of my statement about line-breeding??????????? Or are you smart enough to even know what it is?

Boy you blow up like an explosion in a steel wool factory you make a comment then get mad when someone brings it back to you. I am not saying you can't be educated in cattle just a little hard to swallow advice on linebreeding from someone that runs four or five cows.

Caustic I have never said how many cattle I run, have you ever told us how many cows you have? And as the Norris was wrong so are you! But please if how many cows a person has is a prerequisite for giving or receiving information on here then should everyone post how many cows they have and how much money they made last year off of them?

I have heard people post on here that, from my perception might not even own any cows of their own, but work for large ranches. Does this make them unqualified?

If anything, at all is wrong!!!!!!!!!!! Please Caustic or Capt Call correct me!!!!!!!! I do not wish to be saying things that are wrong, but do not say I am wrong with out giving examples of the specific area I am wrong in. I do not give advice unless I feel I know what I am talking about, and if I do not know then I wish to be corrected.

 

[la4angus]

If anything, at all is wrong!!!!!!!!!!! Please Caustic or Capt Call correct me!!!!!!!! I do not wish to be saying things that are wrong, but do not say I am wrong with out giving examples of the specific area I am wrong in. I do not give advice unless I feel I know what I am talking about, and if I do not know then I wish to be corrected.

From the advice that I have read from you on different topics of raising cattle it appears to me that I could probaly give just as good advice on running a janitorial service which I know nothing about.
IMO You would be much better off to do more listening and less talking at the present time on the cattle boards.

 

[aplusmnt]

If anything, at all is wrong!!!!!!!!!!! Please Caustic or Capt Call correct me!!!!!!!! I do not wish to be saying things that are wrong, but do not say I am wrong with out giving examples of the specific area I am wrong in. I do not give advice unless I feel I know what I am talking about, and if I do not know then I wish to be corrected.

From the advice that I have read from you on different topics of raising cattle it appears to me that I could probaly give just as good advice on running a janitorial service which I know nothing about.
IMO You would be much better off to do more listening and less talking at the present time on the cattle boards.

I do a lot more listening than I do talking! I ask way more questions than I give advice. But once again we have a person that speaks with vagueness! Please if you are all knowing then I invite you to point out what I was in error on my comment! To say someone knows not what they speak of and to not offer the reason for it, besides they are a Janitor or have a small herd is just plain stupid on your part!

Actually for you, caustic or Capt Call to challenge the validity of my comment on this issue of Line-Breeding and not offer a reason for it is irresponsible. Victoria asked advice on line-breeding. I brought out some important parts of it, especially as to when it can be dangerous in your herd development. By you guys making a personal attack on my post you are implying to her that what I said is not accurate or important. And what I said is very important on this issue. And in a sense you are giving her false information by implying mine is wrong.

If I am wrong then please tell me because I do not want to be a person that gives false information. And for My own selfish reasons, I am about to A.I. a heifer in May using line-breeding. I would rather be proved stupid on here than be be proved stupid with a worthless calf.

 

[aplusmnt]

You guys that do not believe in securing our Mexican borders and only allowing legal immigrants in America sure hold grudges huh?

i didnt hear that mentioned in any of the previous posts... dont change the topic.

You are right and I deleted it from my previous post!

 

[Brandonm2]

Linebreeding is a tool. If you feel you need to do it to make your cows more predictable, increase the influence of certain excellent individuals in your herd etc. then by all means go ahead and do it. IF you don't have any real goals for linebreeding and you want to minimize your risks as much as possible for genetic defects or you just want to maximize production in the here and the now then don't linebreed and look for an outcross. I don't think there is one right answer here for every breeder here.

 

[Aero]

If anything, at all is wrong!!!!!!!!!!! Please Caustic or Capt Call correct me!!!!!!!!

most people come here to talk about cattle, others come here to use exclamation points and insist that others agree with them.

 

[Beef11]

I am not afraid of linebred animals at all. For a commercial outfit linebred bulls offer a predictable calf crop if you are in the purebred arena you can sell bulls that put cookie cutter calves on the ground. It seems people are all up in arms over linebreeding due to misinformed prejudices rather than actual knowledge.

 

[Victoria]

I really appreciate everyone's responses. I have been trying to do research into it on other sites and found it interesting that most of the cattle information says that you can produce the best cattle by using linebreeding or on the down side produce ones that have reproduction issues, low milking ability or worse. Most of them warn agains linebreeding too close (although they don't specifiy what to close is) if you don't know the lines really well.
I do understand that by linebreeding you have to be willing to slaughter anything that isn't right.
I did find a llama site that was interesting. They have a chart and say that anything that is more than 1/64th linebred (Same great grandparetn and grandparent) is not recommended. My two that I was looking at would be a 1/16 relationship. I don't know if llamas and cows are the same but I did notice that the 1/64th relationships and higher are the ones that are off the pedigree - perhaps coincidence, perhaps not.
Anyhow, for me right now just starting out I have decided that I am not going to use our bull. I still really think he'd do well with my cow and maybe in later years I'll try it but I'd like to see some of his calves and more of her calves first and get to know the lines better. It is nice to know that the majority of you see it as a tool though, one I will look into more and use in the future. There are risks to it and I want to be a responsible breeder.
So, I guess I am back to Branded Beef probably.
Thanks again everyone, I appreciate the suggestions and advice. It's great to have a board to come to and throw ideas out on.

 

[norriscathy]

If anything, at all is wrong!!!!!!!!!!! Please Caustic or Capt Call correct me!!!!!!!!

most people come here to talk about cattle, others come here to use exclamation points and insist that others agree with them.

Outstanding point Aero!

 

[SEC]

Victoria, in regards of linebreeding and the milk decreasing with fertility etc. Larry Leonhardt says that after 25 years his herd has proven the milk and fertility, growth etc haven't backed off.
I would say you need to visit with someone who linebreeds intensely and find out what they have to say.
On Google there if you search linebreeding you will find a forum that you can hook up with.

In regards to Branded Beef, you might be just as far as breeding with your Rambo bull as they Branded beef cattle are fairly ordinary.

 

[aplusmnt]

If anything, at all is wrong!!!!!!!!!!! Please Caustic or Capt Call correct me!!!!!!!!

most people come here to talk about cattle, others come here to use exclamation points and insist that others agree with them.

That is exactly what I did, I talked about cattle and line-breeding. I think I made a good point on it, then others insulted my reply calling it funny. I was referred to as a person that does not even know what a schedule F was, a Janitor, and a person that only owns 4 cows. And all three of these were listed as reason's why what I said was wrong. But not one person used a factual explanations as to why I was wrong. I do not come on here to have people agree with me. But when individuals that think they have all the answers say you are wrong, I would sure think they would have a better answer than because I have 4 cows, I do not know what a Schedule F is or because I am a Janitor in my full time work.

The exclamation remarks were brought to prove a point that they will not say why I am wrong in my comment besides the above stated. Aero I respected your replies and would think you would be able to see at what point this thread went this direction. But maybe I was wrong?

 

[Victoria]

Victoria, in regards of linebreeding and the milk decreasing with fertility etc. Larry Leonhardt says that after 25 years his herd has proven the milk and fertility, growth etc haven't backed off.
I would say you need to visit with someone who linebreeds intensely and find out what they have to say.
On Google there if you search linebreeding you will find a forum that you can hook up with.

In regards to Branded Beef, you might be just as far as breeding with your Rambo bull as they Branded beef cattle are fairly ordinary.

That's interesting about Leonhardt. I will look into it more and I will try the Google search.
I was going to go with Branded Beef because I like the looks of him, I think he'd be a good cross for this particular cow and he's got some good EPD's.