Let me have it

[Anonymous]

Sorry tb. I didn't realize we are in the midst of a savant. I can't believe we are graced by his presence

 

[HammondCreekRanch]

All I did was agree with someone considerably better at appraising cattle than myself. Any vice you have with my agreement should be addressed with knersie.

If you can't tell that cow is cow hocked and slopes from tailhead downward or that the bull is extremely shallow in his heart then as the cliche goes, you needa get out of the cattle business. The lowest point on a bull should be his chest floor, not his gut.

What I don't understand is that after just looking at 32 pages of black angus bulls in the genex book all had their lowest point at the sheath or "belly".

 

[Massey135]

I don't know nothing but I get a kick out of people telling others to get out of the cattle business just because they think they know more than someone else. It's always made me laugh.

Hook we're pi$$ing in the wind going up against the instant expert.How long you been in the cattle business Massey?? I know you were in Pottsville and in trading securities for a while (so you said) and are now in NE Texas. Seems you had brangus now shorthorn...all in less than 2 years. What gives? Maybe that's how you get to be an instant expert.

Where you gettin instant expert? I had a larger herd than most on here, not bragging just fact, when I was 13yrs old. My grandpa is the best cattleman I've ever known and I'm thankful he has had such an impact on my cattle sense.

Being in the cattle business and not being able to identify a knee knocker is like a trim carpenter tellin me they don't know what a biscuit joiner is. You need not say anymore after that. I have no idea where pottsville is nor do analyst trade securities. I still have brangus cattle that I run both a Gelb and char bull over in addition to the shorthorns I started breeding 2 yrs ago. Its jus people tend to stop talking bout their Honda once they get a beemer.

Again, let me make myself clear. In no way did I suggest the op, a newbie to cattle get out of the business. I did however suggest that a "guru" that cannot identify this should throw in the rag.

 

[Anonymous]

Well I'm a coffee shop guru. I like cuttin up.
And I've gots lots to learn. So I should get out now before I really even get in? Based off your standards?

 

[Massey135]

Well I'm a coffee shop guru. I like cuttin up.
And I've gots lots to learn. So I should get out now before I really even get in? Based off your standards?

If your saying that after being shown what cow hocked is, you still aren't able to recognize it, It might be best to try something else. Now I ask, can you recognize it?

 

[Anonymous]

I know what cow hocked is and I'm not convinced that the heifer in question is. Too many tend to jump on a picture that may or may not be representative of how the animal really is. Especially when it comes to feet and leg set. Funny thing about getting a picture of an animal that tends to walk a lot.
Now the roofy aspect I can see. But I tend towards calling it a high tail set.

 

[HammondCreekRanch]

Sorry for causing so much drama here LOL. But still wondering from massey135 about where a bulls low point should be, if his statment is true for 15 month black angus or mature or is that true for maybe what breed he deals with brangus or char ?. I just don't see bulls that are built like he says but I don't maybe spend enough on my bulls. Pretty sure most of the ones in the sire directorys that have most of the A.I. bulls would cost 30,000 + and don't have the low spot where he says. Breeding and improving is a task that is never ending nothing is perfect that is why we try to improve year after year. I repect all comments,just throw it all against the wall and see what sticks.I will try to get more pics of the heifer too I know one pic isn't the best to judge on but I don't raise club calves or any show cattle just want to raise the best tasting beef that I can and not get killed by a wacked out cow or bull.

 

[Gators Rule]

I give credit where its due. I've yet to see one of his evaluations I didn't agree with. Maybe you should learn from him as well and quit registering those brand name crossbreds.

The female could be cow hocked, or is in the midst of a pivot, bring that left rear leg back underneath her....or not....or is...or was. Can't tell, but a second picture would probably confirm....or not...LOL

Massey, registered brand name crossbreds? Wow, that's original, and should at a minimum make this post the "opinion of the year"...LOL Probably in the wrong column than you might think though...

 

[KNERSIE]

I know what cow hocked is and I'm not convinced that the heifer in question is. Too many tend to jump on a picture that may or may not be representative of how the animal really is. Especially when it comes to feet and leg set. Funny thing about getting a picture of an animal that tends to walk a lot.
Now the roofy aspect I can see. But I tend towards calling it a high tail set.

It's not the same thing.

 

[Anonymous]

True. Rooftop would be more in the muscle structure I guess. My mistake

 

[pdfangus]

when judges place cattle they are supposed to find the individuals who are closest to the breed standard for the sex and age and place them at the front of the class. I say closest becasue very few are perfiect. This is also tempered with the latest show fads which may or may not have anything to do with the breed standard.

judges differ in the relative importance of traits and that is why heifer A wins at some shows and heifer B wins at others when they show together. It is all a matter of opinion.....and we all know what opinions are like...... and that everybody has one.....

an animal is either functional and productive in its envronment or it is not. The rest is semantics and quibling. If these animals are not standing for evaluation in Denver and vying for a championship....a few minor faults don't mean much....
Even I have a few very minor faults......

I still say that from the photos ......the bull is nice and the heifer is decent.....

 

[KNERSIE]

The original poster asked for opinions, see below

I am posting these to get your feedback and opinions and I have thick skin.The bulls sire is Hoover Dam.We are looking for replacements out of him as the foundation for our future herd

I gave my opinion based on what he said his plans are and what I see. What he does with that is up to him, he can either try and learn something from it, continue the conversation here or in private or ignore it and go on.

Rhune asked for an explanation of the terms I used, which I gave.

It is clear from the below statement that the original poster doesn't really grasp what I was talking about.

but I don't raise club calves or any show cattle just want to raise the best tasting beef that I can and not get killed by a wacked out cow or bull.

Someone else can try and explain further if they are so inclined.

 

[pdfangus]

The original poster asked for opinions, see below

I am posting these to get your feedback and opinions and I have thick skin.The bulls sire is Hoover Dam.We are looking for replacements out of him as the foundation for our future herd

I gave my opinion based on what he said his plans are and what I see. What he does with that is up to him, he can either try and learn something from it, continue the conversation here or in private or ignore it and go on.

Rhune asked for an explanation of the terms I used, which I gave.

It is clear from the below statement that the original poster doesn't really grasp what I was talking about.

but I don't raise club calves or any show cattle just want to raise the best tasting beef that I can and not get killed by a wacked out cow or bull.

Someone else can try and explain further if they are so inclined.

Not picking at you Knersie.....

picking at the ridculous level of vitriol that is generated by the discussion.
there is much that could be learned by a reasoned discussion of relative strengths and weaknesses but here it too often gets lost in the name calling.

I am somewhat old school....many many years ago my alma mater did a controlled study using the university hereford herd. They selected one line of cattle based on performance and they selected another based on type. Study began in the fifties. by the seventies, when I was there, the differences in the two lines would blow you away....

The cattle selected only for performance were larger, more productive, more correct and better in every way than the line selected for type.

So I developed the rationale that an ability to understand the function of form is needed.... and yes I participated in judging and was deemed at one time to be pretty good......
but that the function of the form was more important.

qubiling over things like taihead set is an exercise in futility.

I recall a herd of cows that had very level rumps and a forward tail head set with little slope from the hooks to the pins. everyone said they would not breed well for sanitary reasons and that they would be hard calving. Only trouble was they were as fertile as rabbits and very productive with very little calving difficulty even when bred to the big bulls of the day.

conventional wisdom is not always convenient or correct and man has been debating the structure of animals for centuries. As long as the debate and differences are for a function there is merit.

when the debate is over a mere fad or opinion, the merit is difficult to distinguish from the meaningless.

examples....

hip problems in germans shepherds caused by show judges.
australian shepherds who could not herd a cat...caused by show judges who want white collars and big dogs.
club calves who are kept in coolers to grow hair to hide faults. we all know what a valuable commodity beef hair is.
walking horses who have gone in my lifetime from nice big comfortable fairly correct and sane horses to either little small paints or big long legged narrow moto cross horses. many without a brain.
peanut rolling ewe necked quarter horses. Not all quarter horses just those of the show ring.
cutting horses that are bred and taught to mirror a cow rather than controlling it....and their trainers and riders who don't know a cow from a steer.

I will quit now.....go to go to work.

 

[CKC1586]

Best comments on any post that I have read in a good long while!!! Thanks, pdangus!


when the debate is over a mere fad or opinion, the merit is difficult to distinguish from the meaningless.

examples....

hip problems in germans shepherds caused by show judges.
australian shepherds who could not herd a cat...caused by show judges who want white collars and big dogs.
club calves who are kept in coolers to grow hair to hide faults. we all know what a valuable commodity beef hair is.
walking horses who have gone in my lifetime from nice big comfortable fairly correct and sane horses to either little small paints or big long legged narrow moto cross horses. many without a brain.
peanut rolling ewe necked quarter horses. Not all quarter horses just those of the show ring.
cutting horses that are bred and taught to mirror a cow rather than controlling it....and their trainers and riders who don't know a cow from a steer.

I will quit now.....go to go to work.
:nod: :lol2: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[CKC1586]

pdfangus, sorry! Must be time to change the glasses again....

 

[HammondCreekRanch]

I have learned things that I will remember the rest of my cattle raising days and thank you all.
But... still would like to know about where the low point on a angus bull should be.Was hoping Massey135 could expand on that. And One question aimed at Knersie is can you explane more about the late maturing comment I don't know how to tell that is it a look they have ?.I do want to learn all I can.You all have forgot more than I will ever know.

 

[3waycross]

I have learned things that I will remember the rest of my cattle raising days and thank you all.
But... still would like to know about where the low point on a angus bull should be.Was hoping Massey135 could expand on that. And One question aimed at Knersie is can you explane more about the late maturing comment I don't know how to tell that is it a look they have ?.I do want to learn all I can.You all have forgot more than I will ever know.

Not sure what you're looking for but if he was my bull the low point would be the bottom of that scrotom full of about 15lbs of nuts!

 

[Massey135]

The majority of the bulls I just looked at in Genex are just I've I've said . Their bottom point structurally (not sheath or nuts) is their chest floor, "naturally." Most of these bulls your seeing are fluffed and puffed and photoshopped. Just as when your full, your stomach might stick out farther than your sternum, but "naturally", it does not .And a few in the stud books are also just tight in their heart. The ones that have glaring flaws are ,imo, what their owner will promote as a "breeding piece". For example- a shallow hearted bull with excellent lines or weak rear 1/3 might get bred to some big bodied, deep chested cows that have weak toplines and hatchet asses (no butt) in an attempt to balance out the traits in the offspring. I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THIS BREEDING PHILOSOPHY, but some do.

Structural standards in modern beef cattle should be universal, never breed specific.

Look at the Angus bull EXT or the Shorthorn bull "034" - I feel this phenotype produces the most function.

One of the best ways to judge maturity rates in British breeds in to evaluate the proportion of body to leg. British bulls should be 2/3 body 1/3 leg when mature. Hence when you see a 3 yr old bull that is 1/2 and 1/2, then the assumption should be that he hasn't filled out yet thus later maturing.

 

[KNERSIE]

I have learned things that I will remember the rest of my cattle raising days and thank you all.
But... still would like to know about where the low point on a angus bull should be.Was hoping Massey135 could expand on that. And One question aimed at Knersie is can you explane more about the late maturing comment I don't know how to tell that is it a look they have ?.I do want to learn all I can.You all have forgot more than I will ever know.

It needs a trained eye to see it, but the relative length of the cannon bone is the best indication of maturity. Just to clear up we are talking about carcass maturity not sexual maturity or puberty, although there is a relation. Typically later maturity is associated with a more terminal type, ie a type that will continue long bone growth for longer, meaning the types feedlots like to feed to add maximum value without getting overly fat. This is antagonistic to maternal quality. If you said you bought the bull to sire terminal calves I would have complimented you on your choice within the given restrictions of the breed.

Massey is correct to a certain degree that the relative length of leg to body depth is also an indication, but very deep animals and very shallow ones will make the comparison very difficult to be accurate. I also agree with him that ideally I'd like to see a deeper chest floor on your bull, more so for creating replacements than if his use was terminal, but I wouldn't go as far as call him a bull with a restricted heart girth.

None of the points I mentioned are fads or fancy points, everyone have a very definite purpose in optimal beef production, some to a lesser extent than others, but they'll all have some sort of impact.

Don't be too hard on Massey 135 he is very knowledgeable young man, with more experience and maturity he'll learn when to overlook the trees to appreciate the forest.

 

[HammondCreekRanch]

LOL 3way we think alike about the 15lbs.
Thanks Massey135.Thanks Knersie that is really some good reading you hit on points that really make sence about bulls for replacments or terminals.