Late May - June Calving and Grass Fed Operation

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The closer "working on it" is to 100+ the more questions I have and intent listening I'll do. Extra points if land, facilities, cattle and equipment had to be purchased at market value first hand too.
50 is very different than 20, 100 is different than 50 and 500 is different than 100 etc. Of the 8 calves I dragged in last night I had to back 2 extra cows off 2 of them. How does that get sorted out if I'm not around? How often do twins work out with no help and containment? I've seen wonderful mother cows follow one twin halfway across a pen and leave another laying there because they can't count very good - not their fault imo (we have 10 successful sets on the go right now).

Not much of what I do as a cattleman is written in stone so if there's a better way I become aware of I'll be sure to steal it. That's how I got to where I am. Looked at the few guys I know who make a living off cattle and adopted a lot of what they do. I didn't inherit any facilities so I calve a little later. I work for the 2nd largest cow/calf operation around here pretty much full time and do odd mechanical jobs for the largest so I see how things are being done. None of the big guys here run horned cattle or direct market much more than about 10 or 20 animals a year - I can't imagine trying to deal with 1000-2000 people a year trying to sell of 500+ animals by the 1/2 or 1/4. It was bad enough selling 60 pigs I raised a couple years ago.

I'm all ears though. The model is horned cattle, calving May/June, weaning and finishing calves for direct marketing? How do I get to zero dystocia?

Sounds like you need to spread your cows out a bit, close to zero dystocia shouldn't be too hard our pull rate is about 1:80 counting heifers, all presented wrong, all angus. Some cows will try to raise twins and some won't, but in that case you usually have a poorly cleaned bawling calf running around trying to steal milk to grab the next day.
 
There are ways do deal with different styles. The point is you have less issues when calving on grass. Cows are more fit so they calve easier. No scours. No frozen calves.

You will miss a twin now and then. You will want to cull a few heifers for calving issues. You will want to avoid certain Continental breeds. But your weaning percent should be higher than with winter calving.
 
We sold a 102% calf crop as yearlings in 2008 out of 320 cows. Will likely never do that again. Average is better than 96% calves branded for cows calved. Won't do much better than that.
A couple big outfits that calve on grass rarely make the 92% mark. Predators and late snow storms take their toll.
 
The closer "working on it" is to 100+ the more questions I have and intent listening I'll do. Extra points if land, facilities, cattle and equipment had to be purchased at market value first hand too.
50 is very different than 20, 100 is different than 50 and 500 is different than 100 etc. Of the 8 calves I dragged in last night I had to back 2 extra cows off 2 of them. How does that get sorted out if I'm not around? How often do twins work out with no help and containment? I've seen wonderful mother cows follow one twin halfway across a pen and leave another laying there because they can't count very good - not their fault imo (we have 10 successful sets on the go right now).

Not much of what I do as a cattleman is written in stone so if there's a better way I become aware of I'll be sure to steal it. That's how I got to where I am. Looked at the few guys I know who make a living off cattle and adopted a lot of what they do. I didn't inherit any facilities so I calve a little later. I work for the 2nd largest cow/calf operation around here pretty much full time and do odd mechanical jobs for the largest so I see how things are being done. None of the big guys here run horned cattle or direct market much more than about 10 or 20 animals a year - I can't imagine trying to deal with 1000-2000 people a year trying to sell of 500+ animals by the 1/2 or 1/4. It was bad enough selling 60 pigs I raised a couple years ago.

I'm all ears though. The model is horned cattle, calving May/June, weaning and finishing calves for direct marketing? How do I get to zero dystocia?

I think you misunderstood what I said. I have over 100 currently. You told me to get another 100. I said I'm working on it and getting the land to support them. You're right. 100 is different than 500. Interestingly enough the friends running 500 plus pairs (800 in one case down to the South of me) also calve on pasture unassisted with similar breed back and loss rates.

And no, I'm not saying everyone should run horned cattle. I don't run horned cattle. I gave a real world example of how you can take almost any program and make it profitable with the right management and marketing.

Sounds like you are pretty stuck in your ways and would rather be sarcastic than think critically. You don't have to take anything I said and consider any of it. you can take what I said and try to piecemeal things together that might work. Again...your management your decision.

Your sarcasm on horned cattle aside...there are real benefits to LH genetics. They have the highest unassisted birth rate of any breed (99.7%). They have incredibly high fertility and reproductive rates, and unbeatable longevity. They have naturally developed disease and parasite resistance, and have better forage browsing and hardiness than most other breeds. That's not me saying that everyone should go out and use LH genetics. But...there's lessons to be learned about how they got those trees and how the majority of herd management out there takes people further away from those traits.
 
Sounds like you might need to blow your nose
Ok, I will....

How long is your calving season to achieve 99% breed back?
How much area are these cows on?
What type of feed? Vaccination protocol? Land cost?
How many years operation are your averages from?

Our heifers are with bulls 30 days, cows are expected to calve in 45 or less.
They run on 30,000 acres in summer with predators moving them constantly, feed is mostly wild meadow grasses.
Full vaccination program and mineral.
Land sells here for about $750 to $1000 per acre.
Been at it 41 years now.
 
I think you misunderstood what I said. I have over 100 currently. You told me to get another 100. I said I'm working on it and getting the land to support them. You're right. 100 is different than 500. Interestingly enough the friends running 500 plus pairs (800 in one case down to the South of me) also calve on pasture unassisted with similar breed back and loss rates.

And no, I'm not saying everyone should run horned cattle. I don't run horned cattle. I gave a real world example of how you can take almost any program and make it profitable with the right management and marketing.

Sounds like you are pretty stuck in your ways and would rather be sarcastic than think critically. You don't have to take anything I said and consider any of it. you can take what I said and try to piecemeal things together that might work. Again...your management your decision.

Your sarcasm on horned cattle aside...there are real benefits to LH genetics. They have the highest unassisted birth rate of any breed (99.7%). They have incredibly high fertility and reproductive rates, and unbeatable longevity. They have naturally developed disease and parasite resistance, and have better forage browsing and hardiness than most other breeds. That's not me saying that everyone should go out and use LH genetics. But...there's lessons to be learned about how they got those trees and how the majority of herd management out there takes people further away from those traits.
You stated genetics were important then went on to talk about two horned cattle herds, it sounded from the "you can have the nicest Angus steer" comment that Angus isn't tbe breed either. I'm not sure how me thinking you're talking about horned cattle is being sarcastic? I've calved plenty of breeds of cattle and they all occasionally have issues calving but I've never calved any horned cattle. I'm trying to determine the genetics required for a herd that weans 100% calf crop completely unwatched, has a 99% breed back rate, does really well in a feedlot, does great under grass finishing and bring premium dollars. It's funny you'd say I'm not willing to think critically - your numbers are exceptional so I'm thinking extremely critically about what you're saying.

I know people who calve on grass in my area and they still occasionally have wrecks like the rest of us. From what I've seen and can decifer those wrecks tend to be fatal more often because there's very little opportunity to assist. The producers I know reason it's worth it because it's less work. In your circumstances they seem to just not occur. I'm searching for reasons why that would be. Thinking critically if you said you were running 20 cows you could have an issue once every 5 years that I would see every year. At work we'd see it over 5x. It lends more credibility in my eyes the more head you're calving and having those results. It's difficult to steal your "secret sauce" if I can't put a finger on what it is.
 
There are ways do deal with different styles. The point is you have less issues when calving on grass. Cows are more fit so they calve easier. No scours. No frozen calves.

You will miss a twin now and then. You will want to cull a few heifers for calving issues. You will want to avoid certain Continental breeds. But your weaning percent should be higher than with winter calving.
Zero frozen calves. I think you southerners freeze more than we do.

Very little scours no deaths - move older calves away from the younger ones.

Cows are fit - feed away from the water source, extensively winter and only pen a couple weeks before calving.

Year before last weaned over 100%. Last year 2 cows went to pasture without a calf - very quick respiratory illness. Doing Inforce this year.

All cows except heifers bred continental.

I'm interested in how calving on grass and what genetics make dystocia not happen because I seem to be saving the odd cow and or calf. Still might not be worth switching depending on what breed of calf is produced and weights in October. Coasting dry cows and not feeding calves is cheap and 600lb calves sell well in Oct here.
 
Almost all of our previous calving problems were with Simi crosses. Below average mothering ability, below average calf vigor, and thicker calves. BW was OK and weaning weight was higher - - but calf shape was not OK.

We have some neighbors who have good "success" with the same high growth Simi bulls, but they sleep in the calving barn and like to brag how many calves they pulled each winter. Not my style.
 
Well, calving is about the one job a rancher has left anymore that the more work / time / attention to detail put in can equal more dollars in hand. Lots of folks like to brag about how hard they work all year, but think that tending to their cattle during calving is a shameful thing. Never did understand that.
Like Gcreek, a couple of years ago we weaned 102% calf crop. And we had a miserable Northern Canadian March calving. I've never heard of grass calvers with as high of live calf ratio as cold weather calvers. Might happen, but not often.
 
You stated genetics were important then went on to talk about two horned cattle herds, it sounded from the "you can have the nicest Angus steer" comment that Angus isn't tbe breed either. I'm not sure how me thinking you're talking about horned cattle is being sarcastic? I've calved plenty of breeds of cattle and they all occasionally have issues calving but I've never calved any horned cattle. I'm trying to determine the genetics required for a herd that weans 100% calf crop completely unwatched, has a 99% breed back rate, does really well in a feedlot, does great under grass finishing and bring premium dollars. It's funny you'd say I'm not willing to think critically - your numbers are exceptional so I'm thinking extremely critically about what you're saying.

I know people who calve on grass in my area and they still occasionally have wrecks like the rest of us. From what I've seen and can decifer those wrecks tend to be fatal more often because there's very little opportunity to assist. The producers I know reason it's worth it because it's less work. In your circumstances they seem to just not occur. I'm searching for reasons why that would be. Thinking critically if you said you were running 20 cows you could have an issue once every 5 years that I would see every year. At work we'd see it over 5x. It lends more credibility in my eyes the more head you're calving and having those results. It's difficult to steal your "secret sauce" if I can't put a finger on what it is.


This will be kinda out there and I'm sure I'll get some flack...but it's my personal opinion based on a very dry, cold environment at a decent altitude. Take it for what it's worth. If I was starting from scratch and had the time I would do the following:

1. Buy some beefier type solid red or solid black LHs from a local rancher that only feeds and grows them on native grass so I know they fit my environment. Proven track record of fertility, longevity, health, etc. Most LH breeders I know locally have more historical data than you can sort through.

2. Run an angus bull similar to Beral of Wye on them. Keep heifers. Strict culling.

3. Run another similar angus bull on the F1s. Keep heifers. Strict culling. Home raise some 75% ang / 25% LH bulls. Strict culling for desired traits. Blood test to make sure they are homo polled.

4. Run F2 Angus/LH X bulls on F-2/3 heifers for first calf.

5. After first calf run a old moderate framed style hereford bull on the F-2/3 cows, keep heifers then start the cycle over.

6. Play around with running a hereford bull on various gens of cows. You'd be surprised how consistent of a calf crop you will produce.

Don't select for WW or Milk epds. The easier it is for a cow to flesh, and maintain condition the more she has to give to her calf. My calves out of a Beral son grow bigger than a lot of popular mainstream bulls. Most mainstream bulls completely fall apart on the crappy forage out here.

I bought a bred heifer from a friend 2 hours to the north (that has about double my rainfall) that was 75% angus /25% hereford. Nice looking girl. She completely fell apart on my grass. My other first Calvers were fat before and gained back fast after. I take for granted how good my cows are sometimes till I see that.

When you use the right bulls and the right LH cows to start with...you'd be surprised how great the marbling is and how great they grade. By F-2 you can't tell they have 25% LH in them. I've sold some 50% Hereford, 25% LH, 25% Ang calves that grew like crazy and marbled very well and finished quickly on grain. One of my private treaty buyers that usually buys and finishes around 10 a year asked me for some more like that.

You have to select the right bulls or it will be a train wreck.

Every market is different. Here with denver and colorado springs there's a high demand for local raised beef. All it takes is a.few posts on the FB groups with 100k plus people and then word of mouth to sell.

The attached picture is of a 5.5 mo old 75% Ang 25% LH steer next to his 50/50 dam.20201207_205727.jpg
 
Well, calving is about the one job a rancher has left anymore that the more work / time / attention to detail put in can equal more dollars in hand. Lots of folks like to brag about how hard they work all year, but think that tending to their cattle during calving is a shameful thing. Never did understand that.
Like Gcreek, a couple of years ago we weaned 102% calf crop. And we had a miserable Northern Canadian March calving. I've never heard of grass calvers with as high of live calf ratio as cold weather calvers. Might happen, but not often.

After the "bomb cyclone" of 2019 I had neighbors hauling out dead calves and cows for weeks as the snow melted. I didn't lose anything. Even without death loss there's always people complaining about the frostbite losses. Calving on pasture here in late April (or some people in higher rainfall/snowfall areas here calving in June) means the best nutrients at the time they need it the most, no worrying about cold, snow, etc. We typically get very little precipitation in April of any kind. There's something to be said in working with mother nature and not against her. Every environment is different. That's just what works for mine.
 
This will be kinda out there and I'm sure I'll get some flack...but it's my personal opinion based on a very dry, cold environment at a decent altitude. Take it for what it's worth. If I was starting from scratch and had the time I would do the following:

1. Buy some beefier type solid red or solid black LHs from a local rancher that only feeds and grows them on native grass so I know they fit my environment. Proven track record of fertility, longevity, health, etc. Most LH breeders I know locally have more historical data than you can sort through.

2. Run an angus bull similar to Beral of Wye on them. Keep heifers. Strict culling.

3. Run another similar angus bull on the F1s. Keep heifers. Strict culling. Home raise some 75% ang / 25% LH bulls. Strict culling for desired traits. Blood test to make sure they are homo polled.

4. Run F2 Angus/LH X bulls on F-2/3 heifers for first calf.

5. After first calf run a old moderate framed style hereford bull on the F-2/3 cows, keep heifers then start the cycle over.

6. Play around with running a hereford bull on various gens of cows. You'd be surprised how consistent of a calf crop you will produce.

Don't select for WW or Milk epds. The easier it is for a cow to flesh, and maintain condition the more she has to give to her calf. My calves out of a Beral son grow bigger than a lot of popular mainstream bulls. Most mainstream bulls completely fall apart on the crappy forage out here.

I bought a bred heifer from a friend 2 hours to the north (that has about double my rainfall) that was 75% angus /25% hereford. Nice looking girl. She completely fell apart on my grass. My other first Calvers were fat before and gained back fast after. I take for granted how good my cows are sometimes till I see that.

When you use the right bulls and the right LH cows to start with...you'd be surprised how great the marbling is and how great they grade. By F-2 you can't tell they have 25% LH in them. I've sold some 50% Hereford, 25% LH, 25% Ang calves that grew like crazy and marbled very well and finished quickly on grain. One of my private treaty buyers that usually buys and finishes around 10 a year asked me for some more like that.

You have to select the right bulls or it will be a train wreck.

Every market is different. Here with denver and colorado springs there's a high demand for local raised beef. All it takes is a.few posts on the FB groups with 100k plus people and then word of mouth to sell.

The attached picture is of a 5.5 mo old 75% Ang 25% LH steer next to his 50/50 dam.View attachment 2990

We use some Wye genetics also, I think they bring a lot to the table as functional cattle. Our herd is probably about 30% Wye by pedigree. We do select for a little larger cattle than some, and our calves which we finish have averaged over 1450 lbs on average of steers/heifers, and are often around 50% prime with almost no yield grade 5s.
 
Hi everyone,

Seems like we agree to disagree on many things here:)...I think it is all good. Still think that every operation is unique to some extend. For example here last couple of days we had yet another snow storm and I record a video of my heifers walking in the snow towards hay, will post it soon, but it is very deep, and even though spring is close we still going through the hustle. On the other hand the stokers herd been moved to the hay field of theirs and been nothing but trouble ever since. The problem, they had a shelter in form of a barn and they brake all the temp structures to keep them where the hay is, and try to come back to the barn. To me it means only one thing, if they try and know what it is, it is very hard to reverse them back to "low input" method. It was the same with heifers, they were grazing from under snow like it is nothing, then I looked at them and decide to feed hay, plus I ran out of good areas with grass under snow...and from that point on, even if they were moved through the area where there was plenty of grass and could be found, they were not interested.
 
I would not castrate at birth. It adds a lot of hassel to check that often. Just gather them up once they have all dropped and get it done. I have not seen any studies that justified leaving bulls in tact to help with weight gain... and I looked... and looked again... because I dont like castrating... but it's nice once it is done.

You separate groups of different cattle or different stages for efficiency. They all have different requirements so some could be getting too much and others too little. Plus, it can help with tracking and record keeping of costs in a lot of cases.

Dont bank on the cows weaning their calves. You weaning age may vary year to year based on conditions.

A lot of this stuff is real easy when there is plenty of rain and grass and all is well. You will get by with a lot of things. Day in and day out it will be a lot easier to do it right. What you see as pessimism or disagreeing with some of your ideas is years of experience talking to you.
 

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