We all know that first-cut hay in May is more nutritious than first-cut hay in July or August. Has anyone ever had to feed lower quality hay that was cut later and actually noticed a difference in the cattle? Perhaps their body condition declined, didn't produce as much milk, didn't breed back on time, etc., or was there not any noticeable differences? I'm not asking what the textbook issues are, but if you have experienced it and actually observed a difference.
Late-Cut hay
- Thread starter herofan
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bird dog
Well-known member
Sure. In the winter, they eat their normal amount but their body condition goes down. Thats why most folks including me supplement with tubs or something similar.
My hay is never what most folks would consider good. Since I mostly calve in the fall, it makes it tough to keep condition on the cows in late winter as the calves get big. If my hay was 12% instead of 7 to 9% it would not be as much of a problem.
My hay is never what most folks would consider good. Since I mostly calve in the fall, it makes it tough to keep condition on the cows in late winter as the calves get big. If my hay was 12% instead of 7 to 9% it would not be as much of a problem.
callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
I look at the same thing I look at on pasture. The manure. If the pies start turning into piles the grass needs some help.
Hay can be so different from one field to another or even one part of the same field. I always plan on some supplement. I generally find it better to count on fair hay and some oat pasture or WCS. A cow can do pretty good on a few pounds of WCS and pretty sorry hay.
I reserve high quality hay for especially bad weather and feeding calves. I keep lease places lightly stocked and use tubs or liquid feeders where daily feeding isn't practical.
Hay can be so different from one field to another or even one part of the same field. I always plan on some supplement. I generally find it better to count on fair hay and some oat pasture or WCS. A cow can do pretty good on a few pounds of WCS and pretty sorry hay.
I reserve high quality hay for especially bad weather and feeding calves. I keep lease places lightly stocked and use tubs or liquid feeders where daily feeding isn't practical.
JMJ Farms
Well-known member
I've fed the sorriest hay you can feed during hard times. You just have to supplement it with her needs. She can starve to death with a full stomach of sorry hay.
Simplest way to put it is that we all know a cow needs x amount of protein and energy per day usually based on her body weight and stage of pregnancy or lactation. She can only consume x number of pounds of hay in a days time. She can usually get the necessary energy from that amount hay. But if it's lacking in the protein department then she must receive additional protein from another source or she will lose condition, which hurts conception, milking, and general overall health if it gets severe enough.
One would think she could simply eat more hay to make up the difference. But that would be too easy!
Edited to add: I learned the hard way years ago that it's easier and cheaper to keep them in good shape than to let them get poor and try to build them back up.
Simplest way to put it is that we all know a cow needs x amount of protein and energy per day usually based on her body weight and stage of pregnancy or lactation. She can only consume x number of pounds of hay in a days time. She can usually get the necessary energy from that amount hay. But if it's lacking in the protein department then she must receive additional protein from another source or she will lose condition, which hurts conception, milking, and general overall health if it gets severe enough.
One would think she could simply eat more hay to make up the difference. But that would be too easy!
Edited to add: I learned the hard way years ago that it's easier and cheaper to keep them in good shape than to let them get poor and try to build them back up.
M.Magis
Well-known member
Growing up I don't think we ever started hay before late June or early July. I have no idea why.
I'm certain our hay wasn't that good, but the cows never showed it.
I'm certain our hay wasn't that good, but the cows never showed it.
bird dog
Well-known member
herofan said:
Mostly because the protein level is so low. The smart folks at A & M recommend lactating cows be fed 12% hay. I'm lucky if I get 10%. Almost all the tillable land in this area was cotton fields year after year for decades with no inputs ever applied. As a result, the soil is just flat wore out. You can't hardly put enough nitrogen on these fields to hardly make a difference or at least afford to. It really is senseless to take a soil test since I know what it will say. Nitrogen and phosphorus are going to be near zero. Potash is over supplied.
As fence mentioned , it is more economical to produce fair hay an supplement it. I have found it is easier, cheaper and more reliable for me to produce cool season hay. Oats and Rye grass seem to work best. This hay of will run about 8% protein with minimal inputs. I This type of hay also works very well rolled out to give you some reseeding and organic material on sorry patches of pasture plus the cows and baby calves love the sweet taste.
Down here we always get a good laugh when someone posts about having to shred their grass to keep it from getting away from them like Raven used to do. He mowed down stuff that would be considered horse quality around here.
Stickney94
Well-known member
For about 3 years luck was such that we put up very good hay. Cows were fat. Probably too fat.
The past two years luck wasn't with us and we put up some far less quality hay that we supplemented with poor corn stalk bales.
This past January, after feeding hay for 3 months I could tell the cows' BCS had declined a bit. But still fine -- at worst a 5. In February they started getting a better hay and baleage mix and they bounced back VERY quickly.
As such, I've come to believe the advice my dad gave me -- "just feed beef cows enough to keep them alive over winter."
The past two years luck wasn't with us and we put up some far less quality hay that we supplemented with poor corn stalk bales.
This past January, after feeding hay for 3 months I could tell the cows' BCS had declined a bit. But still fine -- at worst a 5. In February they started getting a better hay and baleage mix and they bounced back VERY quickly.
As such, I've come to believe the advice my dad gave me -- "just feed beef cows enough to keep them alive over winter."
callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
One thing for sure. I'd rather have late hay than wet hay.
MurraysMutts
Well-known member
Or no hay!
That's the worst kind!
That's the worst kind!
bird dog
Well-known member
<<<As such, I've come to believe the advice my dad gave me -- "just feed beef cows enough to keep them alive over winter.">>>
I somewhat agree with you up to a point. Mine get in pretty poor shape along about late February. Kind of embarrassing since a lot of my pastures are along the road. By that time they have big calves and not much to eat except the hay that I feed. My oats are ate down to not much of anything. Their ribs are showing and the manure piles stack up.
By late March the native Rye grass and rescue grass comes on and they recover their lost weight pretty quick. By late April and into May most of the calves get weaned off and the cows are butterball fat. They stay in good shape through the summer and into early fall when they calve again and the cycle starts over.
Its the nature of the beast on this marginal, highly erodible plot of land that I call mine. It helps to have some cows with a little ear. They hold up much better than the straight breds.
I somewhat agree with you up to a point. Mine get in pretty poor shape along about late February. Kind of embarrassing since a lot of my pastures are along the road. By that time they have big calves and not much to eat except the hay that I feed. My oats are ate down to not much of anything. Their ribs are showing and the manure piles stack up.
By late March the native Rye grass and rescue grass comes on and they recover their lost weight pretty quick. By late April and into May most of the calves get weaned off and the cows are butterball fat. They stay in good shape through the summer and into early fall when they calve again and the cycle starts over.
Its the nature of the beast on this marginal, highly erodible plot of land that I call mine. It helps to have some cows with a little ear. They hold up much better than the straight breds.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
M.Magis said:
Same thing here, but the reason was we had to get the tobacco done first. Tobacco was the important crop, the hay was just a sideline to keep a few cows alive during the winter.
Logan52
Well-known member
For my uncle, who was one of the best farmers I knew and made money at it, tobacco came first and cows second.
He sowed Kobe lespedeza in his hayfields each spring. These fields were mostly fescue and orchard grass. He made one cutting a year, in late September or October while the tobacco was curing in the barn. It was certainly late cut hay with lots of dead stems and some weeds but the cows did well on it.
He sowed Kobe lespedeza in his hayfields each spring. These fields were mostly fescue and orchard grass. He made one cutting a year, in late September or October while the tobacco was curing in the barn. It was certainly late cut hay with lots of dead stems and some weeds but the cows did well on it.
JW IN VA
Well-known member
I've fed a lot of late cut hay over the years.There's no "one size" answer.
It certainly depends on the condition the cows are in going into winter,too.
I have used liquid supplement and blocks but both had their shortcomings.Lack of phos.,no magnesium and enough salt to limit intake so they didn't go to mineral feeders caused problems.
My best results,for me.were feeding a commodity pellet supplement on a year I was short on hay.
It certainly depends on the condition the cows are in going into winter,too.
I have used liquid supplement and blocks but both had their shortcomings.Lack of phos.,no magnesium and enough salt to limit intake so they didn't go to mineral feeders caused problems.
My best results,for me.were feeding a commodity pellet supplement on a year I was short on hay.
Dave
Well-known member
The real problem with late cut hay is the fiber numbers. The cell walls in the grass have hardened to the point where it doesn't break down in the rumen. Combine that with a lack of protein and the bug in the cows gut just can't break down the fiber. This causes the hay to move much slower through the cows system than it should.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Saw cows almost every winter that essentially starved to death while eating all the sorry hay they could ingest. Crude protein levels below 7%... there's not enough N in there for the rumen microflora to break down the digestible fiber... so, it can't move through as fast... so their intake decreases... and they have to catabolize body fat & muscle to meet their needs. Sure, they have a big distended belly, but if you REALLY look at them, they're sliding rapidly downhill toward that BCS 2...
We usually say, 'February breaks them, March takes them'... expecially those nursing calves or heavily pregnant... they just 'run out of gas' with green grass just over the hill.
Winter of 2013-2014 took the cake, though... I was seeing starve-out cows by mid-late December. Feb/March-calving herds experienced calf mortality rates as high as 50%. Producers and veterinarians were looking for a 'pathogen' in the hay... but there was none... just sorry hay with CP levels around 3% and TDN levels in the 30s.
But... if you don't test your hay, you have no idea what's in there - or what you might or might not need to do to supplement adequately.
Last hay guy we bought from was good about testing... but somehow he'd gotten all hung up on ADF/NDF numbers... good for comparing lots of alfalfa hay... but all but worthless when looking at stuff that was mostly warm season grasses. I'm not sure I was ever able to convince him that the summer mixed-grass hay he was all excited about because of its ADF/NDF numbers was, at best, POOR quality, due to having a 4% CP.
We usually say, 'February breaks them, March takes them'... expecially those nursing calves or heavily pregnant... they just 'run out of gas' with green grass just over the hill.
Winter of 2013-2014 took the cake, though... I was seeing starve-out cows by mid-late December. Feb/March-calving herds experienced calf mortality rates as high as 50%. Producers and veterinarians were looking for a 'pathogen' in the hay... but there was none... just sorry hay with CP levels around 3% and TDN levels in the 30s.
But... if you don't test your hay, you have no idea what's in there - or what you might or might not need to do to supplement adequately.
Last hay guy we bought from was good about testing... but somehow he'd gotten all hung up on ADF/NDF numbers... good for comparing lots of alfalfa hay... but all but worthless when looking at stuff that was mostly warm season grasses. I'm not sure I was ever able to convince him that the summer mixed-grass hay he was all excited about because of its ADF/NDF numbers was, at best, POOR quality, due to having a 4% CP.
OP
OP
herofan
Well-known member
Logan52 said:
Wow. If his cows did well on September and October hay, that's amazing. Were they with calf in the winter? Did he supplement? I've heard my grandfather speak of Kobe Lespedeza in his day.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
We started limit-feeding hay in 2007 - late spring freezes and 1" of rain between May 1 and Nov 30 meant no hay... people round here were paying $100/roll for cornstalks or CRP 'residue' baled in October - saw one at a neighbor's that was an ATV-sized pile of 1-2" stem-diameter honeylocust trees once the cows picked through and ate what they could.
Trials done at TOSU showed you could feed as little as 5# (actually, 2.5#) of hay/day and 'get by', so long as you met all other nutritional needs. So...We bought in some expensive hay from out west (paid more than I said I ever would), and shot for 10# intake per cow/day + 15#/hd/day of modified distiller's grain product. Cows came through the winter in better shape than in previous years, when they'd had all the sorry, local 'holiday hay' that they could eat - usually cut in July, or whenever the local hay guys got around to it.
We continued the limit-feeding +supplement each following winter, until we sold out last fall... though we did move up to about 25#/hd/day hay and supplemented with DDG based on the hay analysis and stage of lactation/gestation of the two groups of cows.
Trials done at TOSU showed you could feed as little as 5# (actually, 2.5#) of hay/day and 'get by', so long as you met all other nutritional needs. So...We bought in some expensive hay from out west (paid more than I said I ever would), and shot for 10# intake per cow/day + 15#/hd/day of modified distiller's grain product. Cows came through the winter in better shape than in previous years, when they'd had all the sorry, local 'holiday hay' that they could eat - usually cut in July, or whenever the local hay guys got around to it.
We continued the limit-feeding +supplement each following winter, until we sold out last fall... though we did move up to about 25#/hd/day hay and supplemented with DDG based on the hay analysis and stage of lactation/gestation of the two groups of cows.
Logan52
Well-known member
Like I said, tobacco came first for him for that was what made him money. The cows just kept the rougher ground grazed back. No definite calving season and not too much management. Since he was a tenant farmer, the cattle were not as advantageous for him in sharing with the landlord. Still, his reputation was very solid and he could rent some of the best farms in the county.
He always combined a little wheat off old tobacco patches, as much for the September dove hunt as for the money it made. Some of these hunts were large events with many people and lots of doves put on the ground.
With a good stand of Kobe and adequate rain this hay was not that bad, especially for dry cows. He did not supplement very much at all. When he spent a dollar you could be sure he had a good chance of getting a return on it with interest.
I used to trade work with him when I was young, working six weeks to two months in order to get him and the crew for maybe four days on my small place.
He always combined a little wheat off old tobacco patches, as much for the September dove hunt as for the money it made. Some of these hunts were large events with many people and lots of doves put on the ground.
With a good stand of Kobe and adequate rain this hay was not that bad, especially for dry cows. He did not supplement very much at all. When he spent a dollar you could be sure he had a good chance of getting a return on it with interest.
I used to trade work with him when I was young, working six weeks to two months in order to get him and the crew for maybe four days on my small place.
