KEEP OR CULL HEREFORD BULLS

[angus9259]

DOC HARRIS. Thanks for your reply which make sense. I never intended to keep either bulls to use in my herd so i have therefore sort of answered the question i first posted. my theory is i should never sell a breeding bull i would not consider for use in my own herd therefore they should be culls. Thanks all

And I disagree with that. That bull might fit my needs, but I would pay less foro it than a superior bull.

I'd be happy. The bull would be happy. You should be happy.

I agree with HD. Perhaps the difference between one of those two bulls and a "perfect" bull might be $2000. That's $2000 that many folks won't get back just because the topline isn't straight. We don't have a moral responsibility to only produce "premium" bulls. We have a responsibility to meet the needs of our customers.

 

[Taurus]

Either bull would be a herd improver for most places. That said, if your goal is to make a name for yourself as a premium breeder - that's a different matter.

kinda hard to improve a herd with these tiny nuts.

 

[Nesikep]

OK, I figured I'd bring this back... I just measured my yearling bull (10 days short of a year), and his scrotal was at 12.75", or 32.4cm.. with a snug fit... Is that decent? I measured the 4 year old bull and he was at 13.5" (or 34cm), but they hang much lower... certainly isn't the warmest day today either with a north wind, rain and hail.

 

[hillsdown]

OK, I figured I'd bring this back... I just measured my yearling bull (10 days short of a year), and his scrotal was at 12.75", or 32.4cm.. with a snug fit... Is that decent? I measured the 4 year old bull and he was at 13.5" (or 34cm), but they hang much lower... certainly isn't the warmest day today either with a north wind, rain and hail.

Here is a good link http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... 06-015.htm

34 for a 4 year old is not very good. How does he test every year when you semen test?

The smallest scrotal we had this year was 38cm on one of the yearlings that I sold, he was 12 months and 2 days old when tested. Strange as he was the biggest and longest out of the group of reds and his dam is a dam of merit cow, but his test count was I think 93%. I think minimum scrotal circumference for the GV breed is 32cm at 15 months. I have never had one under 36 and that was with zero grain, just hay and he was also a calving ease bull I had retained for my own use.

Genetics play the biggest part but feed does make a difference too. If you look at a catalog where the bull is up to his belly in straw and is a wide as he is long with a measurement of 45cm's, feed came into play. However that bull if not pig fat would probably have measure at 40cm still even if he was not pushed that hard.

The yearling Atlas bull last year that got to spend 2 months on full feed of finisher grower with the 4H steers measured at 43cm's but he was already 40cm's before he got to pig out on 30lbs of grain a day.

 

[Nesikep]

He was tested as a yearling and passed, but don't have the specifics about it.. hasn't been tested since but bred the cows alright.. He doesn't look to have small nuts, perhaps they're more oval (longer) than round?

 

[hillsdown]

He was tested as a yearling and passed, but don't have the specifics about it.. hasn't been tested since but bred the cows alright.. He doesn't look to have small nuts, perhaps they're more oval (longer) than round?

If you are happy with his calves and he is getting everyone bred in a timely manner then I think that would be the biggest issue, not his nut size.

 

[Nesikep]

HD, actually, he's right around the mark for a Limo bull according to that link you posted.. 34cm for >30 months

 

[SPH]

I just went back to look at the scrotal measurements of our yearling purebred polled Hereford bulls in our sale pen the past 5 years. All of these were done by the same vet at his clinic when they were getting their BSE and carcass scan data too so the person getting the measurements has stayed constant in this sample size. Getting the 4 bulls we have in the pen this year measured and tested here soon and I would think they will all measure in the 35-38 range for sure. I'm sure everyone has a varying opinion on scrotal size but I think most guys would say they would prefer larger nuts on their bulls.

38, 35, 35
35, 32, 31.5 (this one surprised me because we kept semen interest on him and as a mature 2 year old he definitely is not lacking in scrotal size)
37.5, 36.5, 34, 34
38, 36
37, 33

 

[AllForage]

^ of course they will say they want big nuts, they have been told by every Tom, Dyck, and Harry that they have to be.

 

[hillsdown]

^ of course they will say they want big nuts, they have been told by every Tom, Dyck, and Harry that they have to be.

Our vet tech and I were just laughing about that exact same thing this morning. I think its a guy thing so they can say "my bull has bigger buts than yours" :roll:

I can't count the number of times that is the first question someone asks when inquiring about a bull. If they pass their semen text and bull soundness exam then they must have measured acceptable for their age and their breed standard minimum.

 

[SPH]

Big believer that regardless if you believe in the genetics you are buying or selling the bull needs to have a BSE and paper in hand of the results prior to taking possession. We won't sell a bull without it because your reputation is not worth selling a bull that has fertility issue. That being said regardless if the BSE says that bull is fertile having a good set of nuts on him sure helps sell him too. Every bull we sell has a BSE along with scrotal measurement, frame score, and carcass ultrasound and we take our herd sire along for a BSE while we are at it because the last thing you want is your cleanup bull shooting blanks and not knowing it in advance.

 

[3waycross]

Definatey a correation btween SC measurement and the fertility of his heifer offspring......ther tan that who cares

 

[AllForage]

^ of course they will say they want big nuts, they have been told by every Tom, Dyck, and Harry that they have to be.

Our vet tech and I were just laughing about that exact same thing this morning. I think its a guy thing so they can say "my bull has bigger buts than yours" :roll:

I can't count the number of times that is the first question someone asks when inquiring about a bull. If they pass their semen text and bull soundness exam then they must have measured acceptable for their age and their breed standard minimum.

Yup that's what I think !

I think I posted my thoughts out loud on this thread. Feedlot fed Bulls have been proven to lower fertility. Same in sheep. Does bigger balls compensate for that?? Would a slowly developed bull with moderate balls have just as much sperm?? Does anyone know if sperm reproduction rate can be measured? Lots of theory on ball and score shape and daughters udders too. If the bull is healthy and hotter than a firecracker then who cares. Cutting a very nice bull due to a couple cm's is foolish imo.

 

[SPH]

So thought about this thread since we took the bulls to the vet for their BSE yesterday. Vet told us some guy brought a bull in the other week that only measured 20 (didn't say the age but have to assume it was a yearling) and they couldn't get any semen from him. Makes you wonder why the breeder even bothered to keep him intact let alone even bring him in for a BSE as at 20 you'd think just looking at him without measuring you'd know he probably shouldn't be a bull if he's lacking in scrotal size that badly.

That being said our yearling bulls did pretty well, all passed their BSE with 2 late Feb bulls and 1 early March bull measuring 39, 39, and 35.5 for scrotal while the late April bull who isn't quite 1 year old yet was 31. Despite how big a bull's nuts may be, we are big believers of having any bull that we sell or use ourselves get a BSE, just because a bull settled cows the previous year doesn't mean he's going to do the same the next year too. Have heard of enough stories of guys turning their bulls out and noticing none of the cows were settling after a few heat cycles or took their bull in for a BSE before breeding season to be surprised he's no longer fertile for one reason or another. For what cattle are bringing right now it's sure worth the expense to make sure everything is functional before you turn a bull out with cows else you could be missing out on a lot of potential income.