Jim Lents

[Aaron]

Based on the AHA scoring system, anything less than a 75 doesn't stick around here long. Don't care if they raise a big calf and breed back - if I have to help a calf suck or milk out a quarter, her fate is sealed. 77 and higher is my standard of quality.

 

[KNERSIE]

All u guys bashing udders need to understand there is a difference between functional and desirable.

I ask this question.
If those cows produce to 10 yr old without help and wean a good calf is it a problem? Or just eyesore for u.

Exactly!

It's beef cows, as long as they have an udder that I don't need to bother with for it to do its job for the cow's entire productive life, its good enough. Fix the more important stuff before you satisfy your udder fetish

 

[Nesikep]

I think you just have be aware of it.. if you're willing to give up udder score for other positive attributes which these cattle have.. if they aren't big milkers, the less than desirable teat and udder scores may not really come into play that much, but if the udder suspension is weak and they're bred to a high milking animal, the resulting offspring may have some serious problems.
Teat size.. I don't mind if they're long, as long as they're cylindrical and you can tell where the teat ends and the bag starts.. Udders I look for the teats in a "square", and ideally they're all at about the same level.. the bottom of the bag shouldn't be lower than the navel.. ideally.. at least not in a younger cow
From my own herd, I think this is about as close to a perfect udder as I will ever have

Her mother at 16


10 years of age isn't really a "test" of longevity.. it's like a 50% passing grade on a multiple choice test... When we bought our original herd of 16 mostly herf cows, only one of them lived to be over 10 years old, and a LOT of it was due to bad udders (Hooves and vaginal prolapses too, but I would doubt Lents has that)

I just can't fathom making a step backward in something I've worked hard to get both functional and esthetic in my herd.. they aren't all at my desired level yet though.. This is the one I had to fight with yesterday morning to get the calf on the teats, in a blizzard.. Yeah, she raises a good calf, but it's not the kind of cow that'll be here in 10 years for sure (she's 7 in the pic)


I'd like to see those Lents' cows bags at calving time to really see what they're like.. and what IS the cause of the end of their functional life? Is it by chance the udder? They must get culled for something, and the first thing to look for is your most common cull point, and improve on that.

 

[Aaron]

All u guys bashing udders need to understand there is a difference between functional and desirable.

I ask this question.
If those cows produce to 10 yr old without help and wean a good calf is it a problem? Or just eyesore for u.

Exactly!

It's beef cows, as long as they have an udder that I don't need to bother with for it to do its job for the cow's entire productive life, its good enough. Fix the more important stuff before you satisfy your udder fetish

I assume your calving in an enclosed area/pen/barn and can monitor and assist a calf trying to nurse on those coke bottle teats. I quite often find that guys who like to baby their cattle let a lot of that kind of stuff slide. Commercial cattlemen who don't pamper their cattle know that fertility/feet/udder are the three basic things you need in a cow - everything else is optional/upgrades.

 

[Aaron]

All u guys bashing udders need to understand there is a difference between functional and desirable.

I ask this question.
If those cows produce to 10 yr old without help and wean a good calf is it a problem? Or just eyesore for u.

Not at all. But I have yet to see a cow with teats like those in the video, that doesn't need some help. Unless of course she looks like that when she freshens (poor milker), then your likely ok. Put that same cow in a 100 acre field, no facilities, calving on lush June summer grass and I'd be really interested to know of any that require zero assistance in nursing.

 

[KNERSIE]

All u guys bashing udders need to understand there is a difference between functional and desirable.

I ask this question.
If those cows produce to 10 yr old without help and wean a good calf is it a problem? Or just eyesore for u.

Exactly!

It's beef cows, as long as they have an udder that I don't need to bother with for it to do its job for the cow's entire productive life, its good enough. Fix the more important stuff before you satisfy your udder fetish

I assume your calving in an enclosed area/pen/barn and can monitor and assist a calf trying to nurse on those coke bottle teats. I quite often find that guys who like to baby their cattle let a lot of that kind of stuff slide. Commercial cattlemen who don't pamper their cattle know that fertility/feet/udder are the three basic things you need in a cow - everything else is optional/upgrades.

Quite the contrary, I farm very extensive, calve in the veld and am away from home on a very regular bases visiting the other herds I manage so if a calf can't nurse it's not going to make it.

The argument here was never not to pay attention to udders, I have always preached selection for functional cattle in all traits, I just say fix the other problems too before getting overexcited on udders.

If breeders start to remember that a beef animal requires beef too then the commercial buyers would be even happier...

 

[Aaron]

Exactly!

It's beef cows, as long as they have an udder that I don't need to bother with for it to do its job for the cow's entire productive life, its good enough. Fix the more important stuff before you satisfy your udder fetish

I assume your calving in an enclosed area/pen/barn and can monitor and assist a calf trying to nurse on those coke bottle teats. I quite often find that guys who like to baby their cattle let a lot of that kind of stuff slide. Commercial cattlemen who don't pamper their cattle know that fertility/feet/udder are the three basic things you need in a cow - everything else is optional/upgrades.

The argument here was never not to pay attention to udders,

Sure sounded like it.


If breeders start to remember that a beef animal requires beef too then the commercial buyers would be even happier...

Don't see too many beef cattle from 'breeders' that look like dairy cattle, so I don't see where beef character is a big issue. The line between beef and excess fat is razor thin - especially in the British breeds. A commercial producer in North America is not well treated with 'extra beefy' animals in the common marketplace as they are discounted as fleshy, limiting returns for the backgrounder/feedlot. Most value is realized with fast growing/large frame cattle that remain relatively 'green' up to the age of 1 year or even longer.

 

[Son of Butch]

Form follows function.
It's not until a man comes along and decides to improve on nature that real problems result.

In example:
I decide my cows should produce more milk.
Therefore I select more for Dairy character in my Beef cows. It works, resulting in increased milk production, but also creates multiple new problems. Such as udder problems, 'hard doing' cows, a need for more feed and reproductive problems. Giving me new problems to occupy my time and 'correct' which creates more unforeseen consequences.
Around and around the cycle goes. Perhaps the real problem is man's pride and the idea that he can improve upon
God's creation and God's law of natural selection of form following function.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I bought a lot of cows back in 2008-2010 and the remainder is 10+ years old. I calve on grass and seldom start a calf, so I choose to cull a couple per year due to teats or udder. Perhaps 2 to 3% of the overall herd per year. These were usually SH crosses with bottle teats or heavy milking continental cross cows with big bags - - not Herefords.

I have fewer functional problems with retained heifers. None for teats and less than 2% per year culled for udders at this point. A few start breaking down at about 7 or 8 years old. The hobby guys will buy this kind bred and then baby them, so there is no need to take a chance on calving them out in the bush.

I looked at my current cull list - 70% for age, 20% for udder, 10% for feet. So I need to focus on finding bulls with better teeth!

 

[Nesikep]

I bought a lot of cows back in 2008-2010 and the remainder is 10+ years old. I calve on grass and seldom start a calf, so I choose to cull a couple per year due to teats or udder. Perhaps 2 to 3% of the overall herd per year. These were usually SH crosses with bottle teats or heavy milking continental cross cows with big bags - - not Herefords.

I have fewer functional problems with retained heifers. None for teats and less than 2% per year culled for udders at this point. A few start breaking down at about 7 or 8 years old. The hobby guys will buy this kind bred and then baby them, so there is no need to take a chance on calving them out in the bush.

I looked at my current cull list - 70% for age, 20% for udder, 10% for feet. So I need to focus on finding bulls with better teeth!

you mean 70% for teeth? At what age does this start to show up for you?

 

[elkwc]

I've seen this video before. Saw another video by a different person and never saw an udder like the one pictured in this video. All were much better.. I've seen some say also talked to some that have visited Lents herd and they have stated overall the udders & teats are better than what is shown in this video. Makes me wonder if this person has an agenda. It appears he shows the same udder most of the time. He doesn't show the udders of many cows. Again I doubt if this cow is a true representation of Lents herd. I'm not a Lents fan and likely will never use any of his cattle but udder and teats issues isn't why I won't use them.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I looked at my current cull list - 70% for age, 20% for udder, 10% for feet. So I need to focus on finding bulls with better teeth!

you mean 70% for teeth? At what age does this start to show up for you?[/quote]

I wean at 10 months unless there is a forage problem. So 70% of my pre selected 2017 culls for not being able to hold enough condition while rising a respectable calf. They look old and run down. Longevity seems to be somewhat breed based. I have a few SM teenage Herefords and wf that still hold condition, but angus usually fade fast after about 10 years old, and some heavy milking crosses have issues after about 7 years old.
So which is more profitable - - the cow that raises six 650# calves, or the cow that raises ten 500# calves?

 

[WalnutCrest]

I looked at my current cull list - 70% for age, 20% for udder, 10% for feet. So I need to focus on finding bulls with better teeth!

you mean 70% for teeth? At what age does this start to show up for you?

I wean at 10 months unless there is a forage problem. So 70% of my pre selected 2017 culls for not being able to hold enough condition while rising a respectable calf. They look old and run down. Longevity seems to be somewhat breed based. I have a few SM teenage Herefords and wf that still hold condition, but angus usually fade fast after about 10 years old, and some heavy milking crosses have issues after about 7 years old.
So which is more profitable - - the cow that raises six 650# calves, or the cow that raises ten 500# calves?

Depends. Are any of the calves black?

:hide:

 

[Hollis]

you mean 70% for teeth? At what age does this start to show up for you?

I wean at 10 months unless there is a forage problem. So 70% of my pre selected 2017 culls for not being able to hold enough condition while rising a respectable calf. They look old and run down. Longevity seems to be somewhat breed based. I have a few SM teenage Herefords and wf that still hold condition, but angus usually fade fast after about 10 years old, and some heavy milking crosses have issues after about 7 years old.
So which is more profitable - - the cow that raises six 650# calves, or the cow that raises ten 500# calves?

Depends. Are any of the calves black?

:hide:

I would say marketing would have more to do with black, red, or white.

 

[ANAZAZI]

I've seen this video before. Saw another video by a different person and never saw an udder like the one pictured in this video. All were much better.. I've seen some say also talked to some that have visited Lents herd and they have stated overall the udders & teats are better than what is shown in this video. Makes me wonder if this person has an agenda. It appears he shows the same udder most of the time. He doesn't show the udders of many cows. Again I doubt if this cow is a true representation of Lents herd. I'm not a Lents fan and likely will never use any of his cattle but udder and teats issues isn't why I won't use them.

Exactly my thoughts. The video is horrible; in the title the words "basics of linebreeding" appear, the book is called 'the Basis of Linebreeding, then the spell 'linebred' like "line bread", the credibility of the videomaker is gone there already. Playing the footage at the wrong speed is another no-no, we get to see the same few udders many times, only filming old cows and so on. Poor work indeed.

 

[Lazy M]

All u guys bashing udders need to understand there is a difference between functional and desirable.

I ask this question.
If those cows produce to 10 yr old without help and wean a good calf is it a problem? Or just eyesore for u.

Exactly!

It's beef cows, as long as they have an udder that I don't need to bother with for it to do its job for the cow's entire productive life, its good enough. Fix the more important stuff before you satisfy your udder fetish

Knersie: you just told me in another thread that my new Hereford bull shouldn't have been marketed because his eyelashes slant upward too much, and now you're giving these horribly uddered cows a pass? WTH? Take the blinders off..

 

[KNERSIE]

Go back and read all my posts on this thread in context.

 

[Lazy M]

Go back and read all my posts on this thread in context.

:lol:
I did and don't disagree that poor, but functional, udders can be ignored for strictly commercial operations, but it appears that these cattle are being used to represent a model herd. Are they seedstock producers? Total BS, and your credibility is flushed down the toilet if you are making excuses for their obvious flaws..

 

[Hollis]

Go back and read all my posts on this thread in context.

:lol:
I did and don't disagree that poor, but functional, udders can be ignored for strictly commercial operations, but it appears that these cattle are being used to represent a model herd. Are they seedstock producers? Total BS, and your credibility is flushed down the toilet if you are making excuses for their obvious flaws..

U probably should go visit the herd before u starting accusation's . I very tight line bred herd and I highly doubt that those are the norm. I agree selection pressure should be used to rid the problem. But functionality trumps / beauty in this case.

All yours beautiful? Highly doubt it

 

[Lazy M]

Go back and read all my posts on this thread in context.

:lol:
I did and don't disagree that poor, but functional, udders can be ignored for strictly commercial operations, but it appears that these cattle are being used to represent a model herd. Are they seedstock producers? Total BS, and your credibility is flushed down the toilet if you are making excuses for their obvious flaws..

U probably should go visit the herd before u starting accusation's . I very tight line bred herd and I highly doubt that those are the norm. I agree selection pressure should be used to rid the problem. But functionality trumps / beauty in this case.

All yours beautiful? Highly doubt it

Go back and read all my posts on this thread in context.