It's expensive

[Son of Butch]

Sure wish I could figure out how to keep a cow for $120 a year.

These are the same folks that start their tax return with the refund they want and then work backwards. :nod:

Are you talking about me?

I Always do that! But it has never helped me in lowering expenses!
I figured out how to keep cows for $120 a year, but then my neighbors got ticked about using their feed.

 

[ez14.]

Sure wish I could figure out how to keep a cow for $120 a year.

These are the same folks that start their tax return with the refund they want and then work backwards. :nod:

I'd like to do that! Do you know how?? Because I had to pay

 

[Son of Butch]

Sure wish I could figure out how to keep a cow for $120 a year.

These are the same folks that start their tax return with the refund they want and then work backwards. :nod:

I'd like to do that! Do you know how?? Because I had to pay

I guess it's just a natural talent... you're young, you'll figure it out. Tip: (having a criminal mind helps)

 

[ez14.]

These are the same folks that start their tax return with the refund they want and then work backwards. :nod:

I'd like to do that! Do you know how?? Because I had to pay

I guess it's just a natural talent... you're young, you'll figure it out. Tip: (having a criminal mind helps)

thanks for the encouragement and tip :tiphat:

:lol:

 

[kickinbull]

Yeah, I did quick math and come up with about 1200-1300. And oh boy, we just had a bearing go bad on the NEW discbine. It's covered by warranty, but will fix it ourselves or wait for several weeks for it to get done...so they said they would pay all parts, and shipping if we wanted to do it and it will still be covered but gee whiz....Got the part today so it will get done this week....
Pulled a dead calf out of a bought cow, then she went down and died 24 hours later.....Luckily one of the "cheap" breds, but now a loss... still not ready to pack it in yet....but won't see much "profit". One godd thing is steer prices on the 4+5 wts are up to the 1.40-1.75 range and heifers about 10 to 20 cents less so hope to do okay in about 2 weeks when we ship some. We'll see.

ya and non ag family members say 'but you can write it off!"

 

[Son of Butch]

ya and non ag family members say 'but you can write it off!"

A write off.... the call of the truly ignorant and those lacking in understanding.
that's really funny... if it wasn't so sad

 

[Brute 23]

Trying to pay for equipment with 30 head is a lot harder than 100 head. If you graph costs vs revenue with cattle there are sweet spots.

Tell me more ?

Yes I would like to know where the sweet spot is also.

Just like others have said cattle is about volume. Its a low margin, high volume game.

From what I see is the killer with cattle are the capital investments not the actual day to day operating costs. The tractors, the trailers, and all the other equipment that we all love to play with. When you crank up a $30K tractor,with a $15K shredder, that burns 3g/ hr of $3 diesel, uses $450 blades, and $200 hydraulic lines... it puts the pressure on those cows to produce.

When your < 10 head its hard to buy any thing... even a bull is a stretch.

As you get to 30 head you might start looking at a little used tractor, maybe a cattle trailer. Those two items may get you from 30 head to 50 or 60.

So if your graphing your costs per head vs # of head you will start out in the bottom left with some gap. As you move north east they will run fairly proportion until you hit a purchase like a tractor or trailer then your costs/h will spike. Lets say that is at 30 head. Then as you move toward 60 head it will start coming together again until you make another purchase like a tractor, then they will part again.

In a perfect world although you get a spike every time you buy a capital investment it should bring your operational cost per head lower over time.

People who have grown naturally over time know the dynamics of this struggle. When you have small numbers its hard to buy some thing simple like hay rings. We all know they are more efficient but on a small scale like 5 head your pay out may be 10 years. When you get to 100 head you can't hardly afford not to have them.

IMO the spikes come in increments of 30-50 head. If you can be aware of this you can see that some times it is not always wise to add more head because it may kick you right it to that next spike. If your not adding enough head to get you in to that next cost per head valley you may be better staying where you are at. Especially with labor becoming a bigger factor as your head numbers grow.

Every ones numbers will be different but you should see the same trend. I use this a lot when leasing land to determine what I would have to pay for it to be worth while. The further it is from "home base" the more head it has to handle because there will be a certain amount of cost associated with the transportation no matter if its 10 head or 100 head.

There are a ton of different variables and situations but its one more tool in the belt IMO.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I agree that repairing used equipment, or buying new equipment, can eat you up. But I think that the investment points are personal choices in most cases.

Our local low cost producer has a skid steer, a stock trailer, and a flatbed. He doubled his herd size recently w/o any additional equipment. For folks who want to own a full line of equipment - - it seems like they need to be > 150 commodity cows to be effective.

A regional expert is pushing back grounding your calves (because cows cannot pay the bills). Another expert is pointing out that back grounding is not profitable most years. Seems to be an issue of overhead and ADG. I bought about $1000 of corral panels to background my calves so the additional investment was minimal. Either I am good or way over capitalized. :?

 

[Brute 23]

I agree that repairing used equipment, or buying new equipment, can eat you up. But I think that the investment points are personal choices in most cases.

Our local low cost producer has a skid steer, a stock trailer, and a flatbed. He doubled his herd size recently w/o any additional equipment. For folks who want to own a full line of equipment - - it seems like they need to be > 150 commodity cows to be effective.

That means he was operating is a cost spike before and when he double his herd with the same equipment he should have brought his cost/h down. That is what we would all like to do. That is easier to do once you break over a certain threshold and have accumulated a pretty good stable of equipment. The good thing is some thing like a flat bed trailer or a good tractor can last for ever and holds their value over time. They can service a lot of cattle for a lot of years so their cost per head is better than some thing like a round baler.

If you chart it over time you should be able to get an average cost per head that can help you determine if its time to buy some thing or not.

 

[TexasBred]

Sure wish I could figure out how to keep a cow for $120 a year.

These are the same folks that start their tax return with the refund they want and then work backwards. :nod:

I'd like to do that! Do you know how?? Because I had to pay

EZ you missed the key point. You start at the bottom and work up.

 

[farmerjan]

Brute is right on. We started small, I had a 2 horse then a 4 horse trailer that doubled as a cattle trailer and had the pickup as the vehicle. Then got a few more cows, (started with 5) and then raised a few heifers up and got to 25. Had a neighbor make the hay or grazed it all and bought hay. Had nurse cows to raise 3to 8 calves per lactation. Gave me some to sell.

Then my son graduated high school, moved down here with me, and got a job and started expanding. Got an old used tractor, then an old square baler with the wisconsin engine on it so we could pull it with a smaller tractor and didn't need a live pto. Had been cutting with a sickle bar on the tractor and using a dump rake and pitching it onto the truck and up into the hay mow. Then got a few more cows, had some sheep, had some hogs, raised feeder pigs. Good sideline until the bottom dropped out.
Then got another tractor, then a round baler, and the haybine . Up to about 50 cows. Then he decided to finance a group and bought 40 more. We had some rented ground so it worked out. We kept heifers, bought some sorry breds for little of nothing, kept some heifers. Started culling for dispositions more, bought some more cows when a few people were selling out. Up to about 75-80 cows.

We bought most of the inventory of a friend that was dying of cancer; equipment and cows. Financed at a very reasonable rate, interest was in the 3% range, and it was done to help give the widow an income when he was gone. Cows were for 3 years, their off spring paid all the payments, all are gone as they were older but we got them at pound price and have several heifers now in the herd from them. Equipment is longer term but rate is low also. Went to 150 head to make it work then to 200 as we kept getting asked to rent this place or that place. Now have lost a few places due to sales, and are back to about 175 head brood cows. We paid off a bunch of stuff when the prices were way up a few years ago, and have upgraded our discbine and bought another USED round baler. Bought 75 acres that the cattle are paying for and then the house and 3 acres that went with it that the rent pays for. We are spread out and not sure if it is the way to go but it is holding it's own.

The tractors will be around for awhile so it does reduce the cost per head. We use and reuse and fix .... The discbine was turned in for a new one after looking at cost, value on our old one, and repair costs for the old one. We use it alot, and constant repairs and down time don't help. It made sense to go for a new one. But we have some 40 yr old tractors and older and don't plan on any new ones unless we hit the lottery.
We are strictly commercial, a few registered cows but don't pursue the reg market. Buy and use good bulls, and they stay around for years if they don't have problems or get mean. We cull more seriously for attitude in the cows and heifers that we keep. I am older and can't run fast enough to get out of the way of a contrary cow. They leave. Heifers have to be quiet, come to a bucket to the catch pen and not want to take off for the back 40 when they see me. Don't care how nice they are, they leave.
It's taken us 35 plus years to get here. My son will have alot more going for him because I had 5 cows when I started out and he has helped to build it. But there are UNTOLD hours of backbreaking work in what we have. And I am proud of him for working for it.

It is in the size as to what is practical to own. When you get to a certain size you have to have more equipment to be able to get things done when they need to get done. I have owned one new truck, 1979 f-150 2wd pickup. Every single vehicle since then has been used. Newest truck is 2000 I think, my "new" car is 2000 Subaru Forrester. Most all of our trucks are in the 90's. We have a full line of equipment, and they get used. Not into any one "color", it just has to do the job. Tractors are all 20 yrs old or older, balers, rakes, wagons, drill, harrows, all used. It helps to buy from a dispersal sale if you know how the equipment was maintained, or like we did from someone privately. It also has to do with whether you have to have things to look at, and to impress others, or whether you have stuff that is usable, functional, and doesn't have to have a big price tag.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Then my son graduated high school, moved down here with me, and got a job and started expanding. quote]

What would you do differently if it was a one person operation?

 

[farmerjan]

If it was just me, I would've stayed in the 20 cow range, raised more on my nurse cows. Bought hay and grazed my land. Probably wouldn't have rented much except for some summer grazing to give the home farm a rest. It was too much for me alone, and working all the hours I was working to try to make the payments, so it was a blessing that he moved down here.
I lost the first place after a couple of bad years and I realized that I just couldn't do what I wanted on the scale I was at, so it was either get down to a half dozen and just be a homesteader, or do it differently. Plus it was poor land, and it would never have supported more than 5-10 head.

Sometimes I wonder if it is worth it to have gotten this big, but we have flexibility with the size we are and buying some cattle when the prices are low, like breds are now. We can take a little more advantage of the markets and spread the cattle out on rented land and get more grazing if there are fewer animals, or keep more when we have a surplus of grass and hay. If we get into dry conditions, we have enough places to be able to rotate around and buy animals if prices drop way off and others are forced to sell. We can sell when things are higher, and just run fewer cattle on places or move things around and leave some places idle for 6 months then have more grazing into the winter months.
Getting near retirement has made things look different as the income from "my cattle" will nicely supplement my expected SS in a few years. If we weren't this size, I would not be able to add a few head each year like I am now, knowing that there is enough room to add some. It gives me more options then I would have had by being only a small 20 cow operation and needing the income from every one every year to survive. By us owning some joint, any "half" income from their sales I automatically put right back into the operation as part of my "board" for my cattle, and my labor also is part of "payment" for their upkeep. Income from my son's cattle goes towards all his expenses and equipment, land and everything else. He owns approx 75 % of the animals, maybe 5-7% are joint and the rest are mine. He has no real interest in the dairy animals that I like, so they are my projects, my expense as far as grain, and my income. It works out pretty good for us both and he is building equity, and will hopefully have things paid off by the time he is in his mid 50's. His job pays his house mtg., but the farm income pays for all the farm stuff.

 

[Bigfoot]

I had another big day------3 buggies of fertilizer, six 2 1/2 gallon jugs of 2 four d, and another flat.

 

[Lazy M]

I had another big day------3 buggies of fertilizer, six 2 1/2 gallon jugs of 2 four d, and another flat.

Whoa BF you're blowing through $ like a sailor at port (except you're not having nearly as much fun). I've got you for another $4k (if the buggies were full)?
You've got to spend money to make money (or so I'm told).

 

[tom4018]

Sure wish I could figure out how to keep a cow for $120 a year.

These are the same folks that start their tax return with the refund they want and then work backwards. :nod:

Are you talking about me?

Come on Steve, are you implying I am one of those because I can't keep a cow for $120 a year?

 

[1982vett]

I had another big day------3 buggies of fertilizer, six 2 1/2 gallon jugs of 2 four d, and another flat.

Can hear that pocketbook cry from here....


Haven't bought my chemicals yet. Had planned to last week but the wind was horrible and rain set in over the weekend.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I had another big day------3 buggies of fertilizer, six 2 1/2 gallon jugs of 2 four d, and another flat.

Need to add some seed, meds, and repair parts to make it a really big day.

 

[Bigfoot]

Having another Ag Economic cattle thread running right now, reminded me of this one.

Had another high dollar day:
Paid for 6 tons of feed
Bought 10 50lb bags of feed
Bought 6 more 2 1/2 gallon jugs of 2 four D
15 more fence post
About 80 gallons of diesel......I need a bigger tank, all these trips get old
4 safe guard worming blocks-----Cheaper ways to worm, but it's too hot for all that.
Farrier came today, and put shoes on 4 head. Not exactly cow related, but the money was green.

 

[pricefarm]

Having another Ag Economic cattle thread running right now, reminded me of this one.

Had another high dollar day:
Paid for 6 tons of feed
Bought 10 50lb bags of feed
Bought 6 more 2 1/2 gallon jugs of 2 four D
15 more fence post
About 80 gallons of diesel......I need a bigger tank, all these trips get old
4 safe guard worming blocks-----Cheaper ways to worm, but it's too hot for all that.
Farrier came today, and put shoes on 4 head. Not exactly cow related, but the money was green.

Do the safe guard blocks really work?