Is this a good cross?

[Mr. Greenjeans]

Well DOC, it is certainly better to be associated with idiomatic statements instead of idiotic statements. Your wording certainly had me read the post twice.

However, I can't claim "pride of authorship" on the term materminal since I read it elsewhere. I will from this point forward claim pride of authorship on the phrase "pride of authorship". Which leads us back to the subject of proper crossings. The King Ranch in south Texas has developed a composite breed that they retain the right to alter the composition of the percentages of Santa Gertrudis, RED Angus, and Gelbvieh. It is called Santa Cruz for those interested.

Consider the Santa Cruz as the Lim-Flex Gelbvieh cross with Texas heat tolerance (Insert Gert for Lim). I assume with the composite you would possibly lose some heterosis but gain conformation.

I agree with the assertion that multi-breed crossings would help eliminate deficiencies in todays commercial cattle but we still need a watchful eye against mongrelization. I believe the goal for those producers with less than 50 mother cows should be ultimately pure-breeding for production of the highest quality herd sires and foundation females. Even if a small producer start with meager numbers of purebred cattle, by retaining heifers, a substantial pure herd can be developed in 7 years. Enter Irish Blacks, Aubracs, Gelbviehs, Salers, Tarentaise. I will even be radical and suggest Texas Longhorns for genetic diversity.

It would be nice to see the availability of these breeds in most markets. I have only seen most exotic breeds in pictures or the internet. It would be nice for larger commercial operators to have access to these breeds locally. Enter the small, yet focused, small-herd operators.

I am personally far from this effort, but well on my way if I could somehow compare the herd I had 5 years ago to the herd I have today -- lightyears apart with the help of my Grandfathers registered Brangus herd.

It is my personal mission to find out how certain breeders have $4000 Brangus bulls and others have $1500 Brangus bull for sale.

I have yet to dye the wool with these ideas, but other opinions are always welcome with me and my less than expert attempts at improvement.

Mr. Greenjeans

 

[Frankie]

Frankie,

I have to agree with the spirit of your post. In reading people's opinions, I look for absolution and an trying to avoid accountability. I am simply here to gain information -- not looking for emotional currency in "being right". All statements were merely rhetorical but it appears you took exception to some.

"exception"? Not necessarily. Did you even read the original post in this thread?

e.g. If it "has nothing to do with money and nothing to do with meat quality" -- it has nothing to do with me and my efforts in beef production.

My response was based on the original thread comment: he had a red Angus heifer. If you have a red heifer, she's probably not Angus. Thus my response: are you sure?

e.g. the apple comments -- yeah I guess I missed "the point". I guess for me it's hard to keep up with fruit talk when apparently I'm half vegetable. My point was simply hide color has no inherent value or connection with quality, only current market-driven value.

And my comment was directed to be sure he had what he had paid for: an Angus heifer. I'll disagree with you. Hide color does have value in the current market. Maybe not everywhere, but, right or wrong, in a large part of the country black animals are worth more than similar red animals.

e.g. "But we couldn't pass off Granny Smith (green) apples as Gala (red). Are you missing the point of this discussion or simply trying to change the subject?" -- Frankie

My actual point was yes you are right about the apples, but this doesn't correlate to differences to be detected in the meat quality of Black vs. Red Angus. Colors do matter with apples -- Colors do not matter with Angus meat quality.

And my point was that meat quality wasn't mentioned anywhere in the first post or my response. My response was to question if his heifer was Angus or Red Angus. As you can see from some responses, some people don't know the difference.

Of utmost importance is my honest yet anonymous opinion that Lim-Flex and Gelbvieh would make a great terminal product since that was the original posted inquiry.

Won't argue with that statement.

I truly think the Red Angus breeders have it right. You can get in cheaper with reds and produce the same quality product as if it were black.

And EXCEL uses a lot of Red Angus for their Sterling Silver line of beef. The Red Angus Association has been way out front in helping market tagged Red Angus calves.

Consider this: Would a commercial producer be cheating the order buyer or considered dishonest to have a herd of unregistered Red Angus commercial cows and put a Black Angus Sire on them and let the black offspring be sold through the sale barn "across the scales" as assumed Black Angus commercial calves?
I unload my trailer and rely on caveat emptor and our great capitalistic economic system every time.

No cheating involved. Any black animal can be considered to have some Angus in him, as far as I'm concerned. I see people every day referring to any black animal as an "angus." Around here anything with some ear and black is called a "brangus". Without some sort of ear tag to trace the animal's origins, order buyers go with their best guess. Sometimes they're right; sometimes they're not. Many breeds have ear tags you can put on your calves to identify their genetics. Angus came late to that dance, but now that they're there, I think sooner, rather than later, you're going to see ear tagged calves, of all breeds, become the norm in the industry. Right now CAB is using those calves mostly in the "natural" program, but the numbers of calves identified is growing fast. Of course, it's easy to double or triple your numbers when you start at 0.

Same great product while in the color they want while acqusition costs are less. MY POINT WAS an Angus is an Angus is an Angus unless you are in the business of wanting one color or the other.

And MY POINT again is that they're not the same. Red Angus is using Angus bulls to help bridge the gap, but they're a long way from matching the numbers and demand of Angus.

Going one step further is combining black color with heterosis as I assume you are well aware. I say give the buyers what they want -- a black british-continental cross. If anyone asks if it has Angus say heck yeah even if its mother is red.

If anyone asks if it has Angus, say heck yeah. But it's probably not Angus if it's red. It's RED Angus. That's the point to my response to the original post. Red Angus are red. Angus are black. If the original poster paid for an Angus X heifer and she's red, he probably didn't get what he paid for.

No "wadding of panties" here -- only used the "we" to protect the innocent and easily targeted while still being all-inclusive.

Like this one: If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that barks is the one that got hit. (Frankie you are not a dog -- I repeat -- not a dog!) :cboy:

Mr. Greenjeans

:roll:

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

OK, fine

I'll go back and review the phenotypical manifestations of recessive genetics and alleles as evident in their revealing of the melaninistic deficiency of bovines.

Since we agree on all details but the color, we remain in camp together. However I will call the red ones RED Angus and the black ones BLACK Angus. Unfortunately to your chagrin, I will refer to the whole lot as Angus.

This disagreement will only be solved through DNA analysis of Breed-specific markers.

Regards,

Mr. Greenjeans

Nice cattle in your Avatar
From what I can tell of your cattle
I would call them Angus, and more specifically Black Angus

 

[Frankie]

OK, fine

I'll go back and review the phenotypical manisfestations of recessive genetics and alleles as evident in their revealing of the melaninistic deficiency of bovines.

You do that, but it doesn't matter. If the Red Angus Association wants to register some black cattle, it's ok with me. But the American Angus Association doesn't register red cattle as Angus.

Since we agree on all details but the color, we remain in camp together. However I will call the red ones RED Angus and the black ones BLACK Angus. Unfortunately to your chagrin, I will refer to the whole lot as Angus.

I don't think we agree on "all details". But if it makes you feel better, carry on. You can call them zebras if you want. It doesn't make them striped.

This disagreement will only be solved through DNA analysis of Breed-specific markers.

Nope. This disagreement has nothing to do with DNA. It has to do with breed names. Angus are black. If they're red, they not registerable with the AAA.

Regards,

Mr. Greenjeans

Nice cattle in your Avatar
From what I can tell of your cattle
I would call them Angus, and more specifically Black Angus

I like them, too. The avatar came out of the Cattle Today gallery. I think they're Angus, but with the breeds that have gone black, who knows :?:

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

Well said Frankie.

I feel I am mea maxima culpa for having dissention with your statements. We have by all means wasted our time. Your assertion is in regard to color and the legalities of registration.

My assertions were in regard to the original question of an owner with a crossbred animal with no intentions of registration. I was considering DNA, marbling, muscling, maternal demeanor, and other aspects that might apply to the first post.

by suscofa on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:55 pm

I have a red heifer ready to breed. She is 50% limi and 50% angus. I have access to a good red gelbvieh bull. Would this be a good cross?

You are certainly right in regard to hide color and registration. Unfortunately I was never discussing that said aspect of registration and the corresponding concerns of "Angus Associations". I doubt suscofa was concerned with that as well. In addition it may serve us well to reread my comment on "market driven value" of hide color that you dissected. You claim we disagree -- read it slower and you will find agreement.


Mr. Greenjeans

 

[Northern Rancher]

The relative merits of what you cross her with are redundant if she doesn't calve unassisted-breed her Angus-pray for a heifer calf then you'll have two good Angus x heifers to breed gelbvieh in a year or so.

 

[CowpokeJ]

I have a red heifer ready to breed. She is 50% limi and 50% angus. I have access to a good red gelbviev bull. Would this be a good cross?

Are you sure? If she's half Angus, she should be black.

Are you sure? So, are you telling me all those commercial guys using ba bulls should be getting a refund from somebody because their calves are not black?

 

[alftn]

Frankie I usaully think your right on on most things. On this board it seem Black Angus has a bullseye on them..But in this case Red/ Black I think they are the same..Yes I will agree the BA have a much large and prehaps better gene pool, but still two different breeds I do not think so .Just to different colors of the same breed.With close herd books they will become more like to breeds, but still they are two brothers with different color hair...

Back to the question..I think your cross choice would be great,termial steers and good breeding heifers..Cross the 3 way heifers back to a Black Angus bull of Frankies and make a good comm. foundation herd...that be 5/8 angus,1/8 limm, 1/4 gel. Cross back to a B.limme, or a Balancer, or even Hereford,muts yes but all would be a good terimalcross..

 

[ANAZAZI]

Well said Frankie.

I feel I am mea maxima culpa for having dissention with your statements. We have by all means wasted our time. Your assertion is in regard to color and the legalities of registration.

My assertions were in regard to the original question of an owner with a crossbred animal with no intentions of registration. I was considering DNA, marbling, muscling, maternal demeanor, and other aspects that might apply to the first post.

by suscofa on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:55 pm

I have a red heifer ready to breed. She is 50% limi and 50% angus. I have access to a good red gelbvieh bull. Would this be a good cross?

You are certainly right in regard to hide color and registration. Unfortunately I was never discussing that said aspect of registration and the corresponding concerns of "Angus Associations". I doubt suscofa was concerned with that as well. In addition it may serve us well to reread my comment on "market driven value" of hide color that you dissected. You claim we disagree -- read it slower and you will find agreement.


Mr. Greenjeans

I think you hadled this well mr greenjeans; and I agree with you on the cross as well!

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

Tack sa mycket, ANAZAZI

I hope that is how it is said.
Take care,

Mr. Greenjeans

 

[ANAZAZI]

Feel free to prata svenska anytime!