Is there a market for good but non registered Hereford bulls

[SRBeef]

If you want more like if mother I wouldn't sell him till I saw what he did. Have you considered flushing her for eggs? As far as selling him for a bull remember there are still lots of people who buy their bulls at the sale barn. He would be a big upgrade for them.

Jed, I am currently a small part time operation and not really in a position to flush and implant this cow but sure would like to. She just gave me another heifer calf so I'm getting there slowly. Using this home grown bull also adds more of my previous bull's T021 genes to the rest of the herd with his outstanding EPD's.

The combination of T021's EPD's, disposition, etc plus the moderate size and excellent beef conformation, calving ease, gentle disposition and great calf growth of this bull calf's dam is what makes me want to use him on the rest of my unrelated commercial cows and heifers.

The dam I am sure is a full blooded Hereford cow. However I bought her from a local farmer/friend who bought her from an older guy at a dispersal elsewhere in the county, etc....

I also agree - hold onto this bull until I see what I get. He would be pretty much holding or gaining value in any case.

Thank you for the suggestions.

Jim

 

[backhoeboogie]

The bottom line, any animal with registration papers and known pedigree should be worth more.

In theory you are correct. The problem is two of the best bulls I have ever seen were F-1s. What I am referring to is the quality of their calves in the commercial market. One of these bulls belonged to my dad over 30 years ago and was a baldy. Pedigree was only from one side. I would pay a whole lot more for a bull like that than what I would pay for paper, for the commercial operation I am running. Those are indeed few and far between.

 

[KNERSIE]

The combination of T021's EPD's, disposition, etc plus the moderate size and excellent beef conformation, calving ease, gentle disposition and great calf growth of this bull calf's dam is what makes me want to use him on the rest of my unrelated commercial cows and heifers.

Sounds like T21 was very much like the first girl you fell in love with... ;-)

Wait and see a few bulls down the road if T21 was really what you thought he was at the time. Not trying to be nasty, but he had acceptable beef conformation, not even what I would call very good and certainly not excellent. Huth cattle was never known for muscling or thickness.

 

[TB-Herefords]

The bottom line, any animal with registration papers and known pedigree should be worth more.

Then all cull bulls and cows are worth more as long as they are registered. I think most cattleman would sign up for that.
SR your bull is a cull. If your not willing to go through the work of registration and documentation of the bull than he's nothin more than a bull calve that should have been cut. There are cattleman all over this country that raise purebreed cattle with genetics as strong as any registered breeder. They have quality calves that make good beef and they recieve premium's for them. They dont want the work of registered cattle or the liability. Although you never no if they find out they can register them for halving "know" genetics and improve the value of there animals they might.
When the guy you sell the bull to comes back and says your bull's unsound/non breeder/fell apart and wants you to replace him, what then?
End of story you have a personal intrest in this bull. Your proud cause you raised him and to you he's worth more than beef. Either raise quality breeding cattle or quality beef cattle, leave the personal feelings for your family. Anything inbetween the two will create a poor reputation for you as a cattleman or breeder. If you question what he's worth; he's worth beef.

 

[cbcr]

TB-Herefords,

It should be true that animals of known parentage are worth more.

There are cattleman all over this country that raise purebreed cattle with genetics as strong as any registered breeder. They have quality calves that make good beef and they recieve premium's for them. They dont want the work of registered cattle or the liability. Although you never no if they find out they can register them for halving "know" genetics and improve the value of there animals they might.

This is quite true, and some of them do a better job. What we have found out in some of our research, it is not that they don't want the work of registered cattle or liability, what they have a problem with, is all high costs for membership, registrations and herd assessment fees along with some of the politics and turmoil that some of the breed associations have and the breed association telling them what they can or can't do.

They keep good records, know their animals, some of them breed AI and some of them even do Embryo Transplant.

 

[novatech]

A heck of a lot of people go to Las Vegas every year to gamble. They dream of coming home with a pot full, all the time knowing the odds are against them.
The same goes for bulls. Some guy gets an outstanding bull with no pedigree. He runs around bragging about what a great bull he purchased for close to nothing. Then come the gamblers dreaming about the same results.
I can positively tell you that even having gone through 10 past generations looking at desirable and undesirable traits of every individual, including many offspring, that is darn hard to come up with a winner. With no record it can be nothing more than a trip to Las Vegas.

 

[Aaron]

Just finished talking to my neighbor, Jim, and he is pricing his unregistered yearling purebred bulls at $1800 this year. I think it's quite a stretch based on how many years breeding bulls (read that to include aged cull bulls) have been cheap up here (<$1200.00). Being a previous registered breeder for over 20 years, he puts no value on registration papers and majority of his customers never did either. Only difference I should add from your situation is that he has a reputation he built as a registered breeder that now helps him considerably in marketing his unpapered breeding stock. I wouldn't be surprised if he sells the 2 yearlings he has for sale this spring. As a registered guy, it irks me to see him do it, but I know it is done by many, so I just have to adapt.

If you've got basic numbers (BW, WW, YW) and a decent looking sire and dam, someone will likely buy him.

I really want these bull buyers that everyone else talks about, who demand a papered bull. Around here it's all dollars and cents. If a 2500 lb 6 year old crossbred bull can be bought for $1800 over a yearling virgin papered bull for $2000, most commercial guys around here will do just that.

 

[SRBeef]

The combination of T021's EPD's, disposition, etc plus the moderate size and excellent beef conformation, calving ease, gentle disposition and great calf growth of this bull calf's dam is what makes me want to use him on the rest of my unrelated commercial cows and heifers.

Sounds like T21 was very much like the first girl you fell in love with... ;-)

Wait and see a few bulls down the road if T21 was really what you thought he was at the time. Not trying to be nasty, but he had acceptable beef conformation, not even what I would call very good and certainly not excellent. Huth cattle was never known for muscling or thickness.

Interesting analogy, Harley!

I do think my eyes have been at least partially opened on cattle however, at least to the point where I understand few bulls are near perfect. T21 did have many attribute that are important to me. Number 1 being calving ease, number 2 being great growth, number 3 being he makes good cows (as I am in herd building) he also had good marbling and good (for me=low) fat. Was he a visual "meat wagon"? No definitely not. He was not bad but did not have the extreme muscling or thickness of many other bulls.

However the cow T21 mated with to produce the retained bull I am going to use DID have good thickness and muscling including of her previous bull calves. She also is my idea of an ideal size and shape bovine. Here she is just before weaning a previous calf. And here is one of her earlier calves on the left. I think this shows some good width and muscling which when COMBINED with many of T21's attributes is what I am looking to spread around the herd by using this home grown bull.

The calf on the left is hers. I think of few more heifers and cows with these genes then bred to my Huth U070 bull will be just what I need for my system.

Thanks all.

Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

I hope all her calves isn't cow hocked like the one on the left.

Back to the original subject...

How was this bull's dam bred?

 

[plumber_greg]

I think Jim, you're choice of words are part of the problem. Outstanding and excellent are pretty big. When I've bought bulls, it's easy to pick the best out of a pen of twenty. The standout in that pen may not even be noticed when put in with 100 bulls on the next place, or possibly even ten on the next place. Be careful saving the "best bull on my place", if it was that easy, there would be no market for bulls anywhere. I myself have had a cow that raised four or five of my best calves throw a dink for some reason that weighed 100 less than his penmates. Maybe the statement, "Outstanding and excellent, compared to the rest of my cows and calves", would not catch so much flak from other cattlemen. I do like your cattle. JMO gs

 

[novatech]

There is no doubt that there are individuals that have gained a reputation for breeding very good non registered bulls. There is also no doubt that they started with regestered stock to develop what they are selling today.
If you are not buying from one of those people then you can pick the best bull out of a thousand and still have no clue how good he will produce without knowing what he came from.
When in comes to bulls, as the old cliché goes, you can't know where you are going until you know where you have been.

 

[JHH]

I know of two gentlemen who sell unregistered hereford bulls each year. One of them sells about 40 each year. He got fed up with the association and dues and just sells purebred bulls. He is sold out of yearlings and two year olds.

The other has a small herd and he does the same. He is sold out to.

There is a market. You just dont have the name. I also bet he looks different if he gets a new home. Very few cows and bulls are cared for like you care for yours Jim. That goes for land and cattle.

 

[SRBeef]

I hope all her calves isn't cow hocked like the one on the left.

Back to the original subject...

How was this bull's dam bred?

If that is the calf that I think it is on the left in this picture it is more the way it is standing. The cow in question is the one nursing the calf in the first picture and she is not cow hocked as far as my eye can see.

The bull's dam I purchased about 4 years ago and have no idea how she was bred. The only evidence I have is one BWF calf (I bought her as a 3 in 1 bred to an Angus bull) and three outstanding pure Hereford calves. All four exhibited similar characteristics which are the direction I want to go. I actually think seeing 4 calves is more important than pedigree & George's "low accuracy" EPD's. This dam also knows how to give birth to and raise a calf.

As far as Huth bulls go, I have seen Jerry's Oak bull and am very impressed with him. Here is a semen catalog picture from who knows when. The bull actually looks much better than the picture.
http://www.bullbarn.com/herfepd.asp?ID=110
Huth bulls are grass bull's they are not overstuffed pincushions that melt when you take away the feed bucket.

Greg I see your point. I'm judging the fish in a pretty small pond. However that pond is all I have to work with right now. I am not however putting all of my eggs in one basket. This retained bull will be used on only a few commercial cows that could use some of the dam pictured above's characteristics. The rest of my herd will be bred to my registered Huth bull, U070 pictured here (on right) along with my retained bull calf (on the left) getting a weekly training treat. Thanks for the replies. Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

If you plan to sell the bull how will you advertise him? Will you sell him as a unregistered hereford bull?

 

[SRBeef]

If you plan to sell the bull how will you advertise him? Will you sell him as a unregistered hereford bull?

As of right now based on the suggestions here I am not planning on selling him at all. I am going to use him as planned, see how his calves come out next spring and then decide to keep him for another season as a breeder or sell for slaughter.

Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

If you plan to sell the bull how will you advertise him? Will you sell him as a unregistered hereford bull?

As of right now based on the suggestions here I am not planning on selling him at all. I am going to use him as planned, see how his calves come out next spring and then decide to keep him for another season as a breeder or sell for slaughter.

Jim

:lol: You're too clever for me.

I know you know in which direction I was heading, the problem for me comes in where someone markets a "hereford" bull where his granddam could have been anything, he could be a HYC or DLC.

A few years ago I probably didn't feel as strongly about this, but in the meantime I've build my registered numbers to where I want them to be, all the while I had very good straight bred hereford commercial cows that was anytime as good and in quite a few cases better than my start up registered cattle, but they can never be used to produce registered offspring unless I could trace them back to herdbook volume 13 of 1936 on both sides of the pedigree. My registered herd didn't fall into my lap, I had worked damn hard to get them where they are today, I guarantee all bulls I sell, I only sell performance tested, registered bulls approved by our system and I do that at a reasonable price. I get pissed off when someone is trying to sell "just as good as registered" bulls to my customers for slightly cheaper than I sell when they can't even offer an opinion on BW, have never weighed an animal in their life, can't even show the buyer the "bull"'s dam or don't offer any form of guarantee.

 

[TB-Herefords]

Just a question or two. Do you plan to go through all the preformance data work; as for ultrasound, performace weights, semen test, possible trich? After those cost; why not register them through the breed association? If so than on a per/hd basis the association cost aren't that bad. Unless cbcr can do it for free. :bs: ; this one fits good here.

cbcr: How is your cross bred, anything with a hide association going to operate without any associaiton dues? How will it market the "unknow, but it looks the part", registered animal advantages without any revenue? Or will the dues be similar but you will have the ability to register anything?

 

[cbcr]

[quotecbcr: How is your cross bred, anything with a hide association going to operate without any associaiton dues? How will it market the "unknow, but it looks the part", registered animal advantages without any revenue? Or will the dues be similar but you will have the ability to register anything?][/quote]

Our annual membership is $25.00, to register animals is $10.00 then we do have a herd database fee based on the number of animals


$10.00 per month for up to 25 animals
$0.20 per month for each animal from 26 - 100
$0.15 per month for each animal from 101-200
$0.10 per month for each animal from 201 - 500
$0.05 per month for each animal from 501 and up

We do not charge for calves while they are nursing the cow and under 205 days of age. Once they are weaned or reach 205 days of age they are added in to total number.

We have researched and looked at the prices of standalone software programs and if you take waht they cost for a registered herd, plus any upgrades (every 2 or 3 years) we are very affordable.

Even if a producer with the value-added features that we can offer for his cattle only has 25 head and say he sold 10 head weighing 500 lbs. for 5 cents above market that is $25 per calf ($250) and the program cost him just a little over $120 for the year.

With our registry, we have the ability to enter animals that are already registered with other breed association. Angus, Hereford, Simmental, Brangus, etc. (NO CHARGE) other animals such as the bull that SR Beef has sired by a registered bull but out of a non-registered herford cow can be registered with us. Any breed combination can be registered and we have it broke down into divisions of British, Continental, British/Continental and Bos Indicus cattle. Each animal that is registered with us the breed percentages will be documented on the papers. In the case of animals registered with other registries, we wont be issuing any papers on them.

Our EPD's are true multi-breed and if someone does the performance testing taking birth weights, weaning weights etc. , those we have to have as with any registry to be able to give an animal an EPD. We also need a minimum of 4 other contemporarites born in a 90 period.

Also for the same $25 annual fee, members can advertise their animals for sale (private treaty) or (list an auction with link to sale catalog), either breeding or feeder cattle. If you are selling semen on a bull, their is a $25 per year charge. We will set up a nice page for the animal with his picture, pedigree, link to where to purchase semen etc.

We are doing other advertising to bring potential buyers to our website. We are here to help producers as much as we can, and do so at an affordable price.

 

[Stocker Steve]

If you plan to sell the bull how will you advertise him? Will you sell him as a unregistered hereford bull?

As of right now based on the suggestions here I am not planning on selling him at all. I am going to use him as planned, see how his calves come out next spring and then decide to keep him for another season as a breeder or sell for slaughter.

Jim

I calve on grass so I don't turn bulls out till about 8/1, and here I was going to PM you a price so I could upgrade all the black bitches I bought this winter...

 

[Cowdirt]

srbeef, I like your cattle. IMO your cattle get better than average care. I have no doubt in my mind that should you decide to sell this bull you would be honest and straight forward in how he was represented to the potential buyer. My method would be: "Here is the bull, his sire was ...., this cow is his mother and tell her history in your herd. I see no reason that you would have to say more unless asked. The potential buyer and seller are present, the product and the price have been presented and you're both big boys.